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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 14:11:34 GMT
100% yes because they can just be demoted then contract value doesnt matter
so we're literally creating a league where anyone over the cap is just automatically fucked because every maybe-good rookie is automatically signed to a giant deal and then demoted by the teams that have cap?
yep, so dont go over the cap if youre interested in an upcoming class. |
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Post by killybing on Jul 16, 2020 14:12:10 GMT
well count me as a vote for the wheel for 6.0 this system is dumb as fuck
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 14:16:12 GMT
well count me as a vote for the wheel for 6.0 this system is dumb as fuck your league based opinions are generally wrong so i take this as a compliment of the system |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Jul 16, 2020 14:27:41 GMT
100% yes because they can just be demoted then contract value doesnt matter
so we're literally creating a league where anyone over the cap is just automatically fucked because every maybe-good rookie is automatically signed to a giant deal and then demoted by the teams that have cap?
which is why we need to have an extension system for MLE, LLE, and MIN rookies in place for teams over the cap. That's the whole point of my initial post. |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Jul 16, 2020 14:49:56 GMT
so... Logan ... what do you think is the right balance for capped teams extending rookies? do we all get 2 or 3 rookie extensions per year (up to 3 years, at cost of MLE, LLE, or $1m for MINs)? That seems like it would keep teams well-stocked without hoarding (something I'm very guilty of). Should there be a cost associated with it? |
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Post by Majic on Jul 16, 2020 14:50:22 GMT
so we're literally creating a league where anyone over the cap is just automatically fucked because every maybe-good rookie is automatically signed to a giant deal and then demoted by the teams that have cap?
which is why we need to have an extension system for MLE, LLE, and MIN rookies in place for teams over the cap. That's the whole point of my initial post. I guess where I get a bit lost is in that teams will still only have 1 MLE and 1 LLE to offer both Rookies and vet FA. Would there really be a huge need for additional extension candidates? I guess teams could extend a min rookie, but I doubt thats going to happen very often. As a side conversations, can we do 2 MLE's for 1 team? I guess a team over the soft cap has to decided between a fringe rookie or a vet for their MLE. One concern I would have, you go into an offseason with only 3-4 teams having cap space, then a bunch of vets sign the MLE's and we are potentially left with some really good rookies available for min's. |
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 14:51:51 GMT
so... Logan ... what do you think is the right balance for capped teams extending rookies? do we all get 2 or 3 rookie extensions per year (up to 3 years, at cost of MLE, LLE, or $1m for MINs)? That seems like it would keep teams well-stocked without hoarding (something I'm very guilty of). Should there be a cost associated with it? how many 2nd/3rd rounders can we currently extend? just use that same system. |
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 14:52:22 GMT
which is why we need to have an extension system for MLE, LLE, and MIN rookies in place for teams over the cap. That's the whole point of my initial post. I guess where I get a bit lost is in that teams will still only have 1 MLE and 1 LLE to offer both Rookies and vet FA. Would there really be a huge need for additional extension candidates? I guess teams could extend a min rookie, but I doubt thats going to happen very often. As a side conversations, can we do 2 MLE's for 1 team? I guess a team over the soft cap has to decided between a fringe rookie or a vet for their MLE. One concern I would have, you go into an offseason with only 3-4 teams having cap space, then a bunch of vets sign the MLE's and we are potentially left with some really good rookies available for min's. its impossible to do multiple mle/lle in the software |
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Post by Majic on Jul 16, 2020 14:54:31 GMT
I guess another question I gave:
Will we allows any rookie to be demoted?
I would vote no, cap space is king and managing it will be what seperates GM's. Allowing any GM to sign a max Rookie FA then demote before the end of the year would seem to really deflate the cap management need.
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 14:56:49 GMT
I guess another question I gave: Will we allows any rookie to be demoted? I would vote no, cap space is king and managing it will be what seperates GM's. Allowing any GM to sign a max Rookie FA then demote before the end of the year would seem to really deflate the cap management need. eric has already said yes |
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Post by Majic on Jul 16, 2020 14:59:12 GMT
I guess another question I gave: Will we allows any rookie to be demoted? I would vote no, cap space is king and managing it will be what seperates GM's. Allowing any GM to sign a max Rookie FA then demote before the end of the year would seem to really deflate the cap management need. eric has already said yes IMO that is an awful idea. GM screws up and signs a max level FA, or multiple, and they suck. no repercussions of any sort. Demote them to minor league and they can sit there for the remainder of their contract, no harm to the GM or team long term. I feel like this just creates a situation where every GM could navigate with max rookie space every offseason and offer/sign whoever. Player sucks they can demote and go at it again the next year. |
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Post by killybing on Jul 16, 2020 15:03:09 GMT
eric has already said yes IMO that is an awful idea. GM screws up and signs a max level FA, or multiple, and they suck. no repercussions of any sort. Demote them to minor league and they can sit there for the remainder of their contract, no harm to the GM or team long term. I feel like this just creates a situation where every GM could navigate with max rookie space every offseason and offer/sign whoever. Player sucks they can demote and go at it again the next year.
Yeah every top 4-5 rookie will be offered a max by a bunch of cap space having teams and then RNG will decide who gets them and then they will just get sent to the minors if they are bad. Rookie FA doesn't play well with unlimited demotions.
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 15:03:36 GMT
eric has already said yes IMO that is an awful idea. GM screws up and signs a max level FA, or multiple, and they suck. no repercussions of any sort. Demote them to minor league and they can sit there for the remainder of their contract, no harm to the GM or team long term. I feel like this just creates a situation where every GM could navigate with max rookie space every offseason and offer/sign whoever. Player sucks they can demote and go at it again the next year. all rookie contracts can be demoted. if we cant demote rookies then theres no need for minor league teams whatsoever. it's illogical to say we cant demote them because they suddenly make more money. |
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Post by Majic on Jul 16, 2020 15:04:55 GMT
IMO that is an awful idea. GM screws up and signs a max level FA, or multiple, and they suck. no repercussions of any sort. Demote them to minor league and they can sit there for the remainder of their contract, no harm to the GM or team long term. I feel like this just creates a situation where every GM could navigate with max rookie space every offseason and offer/sign whoever. Player sucks they can demote and go at it again the next year.
Yeah every top 4-5 rookie will be offered a max by a bunch of cap space having teams and then RNG will decide who gets them and then they will just get sent to the minors if they are bad. Rookie FA doesn't play well with unlimited demotions.
This is also why I am a huge proponent of limiting the number of max bids. Just like when you draft, there is consideration and thought that goes into who you are selecting. A GM having the ability to throw out as many maxes as they can afford, and then a free "out" from those contracts is not what I would want to see. |
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Post by killybing on Jul 16, 2020 15:06:39 GMT
If there are 0 consequences to offering a rookie a big deal then rookie FA won't work.
get rid of minors or limit their demotions if above X dollars otherwise this will be a clusterfuck. Maybe some other idea could work too.
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Post by Majic on Jul 16, 2020 15:07:44 GMT
IMO that is an awful idea. GM screws up and signs a max level FA, or multiple, and they suck. no repercussions of any sort. Demote them to minor league and they can sit there for the remainder of their contract, no harm to the GM or team long term. I feel like this just creates a situation where every GM could navigate with max rookie space every offseason and offer/sign whoever. Player sucks they can demote and go at it again the next year. all rookie contracts can be demoted. if we cant demote rookies then theres no need for minor league teams whatsoever. it's illogical to say we cant demote them because they suddenly make more money. I disagree completely. It would be pretty simply to put a max salary amount that a player can get demoted. It could be tied into the 5m Extension rule. Any rookie signed to a contract value of over 5 million in the first year cannot be demoted. That would leave contract values between 5-8 million range. It not only limits the bids but also increases the importance of scouting, and finally creates hard decisions on who a team should really target. |
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Post by Druce on Jul 16, 2020 15:08:20 GMT
tie demotions to $, there easy fix
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 15:09:11 GMT
all rookie contracts can be demoted. if we cant demote rookies then theres no need for minor league teams whatsoever. it's illogical to say we cant demote them because they suddenly make more money. I disagree completely. It would be pretty simply to put a max salary amount that a player can get demoted. It could be tied into the 5m Extension rule. Any rookie signed to a contract value of over 5 million in the first year cannot be demoted. That would leave contract values between 5-8 million range. It not only limits the bids but also increases the importance of scouting, and finally creates hard decisions on who a team should really target. hey look an actual proposal instead of a complaint. take notes @killy |
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Post by killybing on Jul 16, 2020 15:11:25 GMT
I disagree completely. It would be pretty simply to put a max salary amount that a player can get demoted. It could be tied into the 5m Extension rule. Any rookie signed to a contract value of over 5 million in the first year cannot be demoted. That would leave contract values between 5-8 million range. It not only limits the bids but also increases the importance of scouting, and finally creates hard decisions on who a team should really target. hey look an actual proposal instead of a complaint. take notes @killy
hey dumbass my post in this thread "complaining" about the problem literally offers two solutions in the same post
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Post by Majic on Jul 16, 2020 15:15:30 GMT
My main point of all the above discussion is that there needs to be a risk/reward to offering max level rookies.
Doing so accomplishes the below:
- Force the GM to be smart with their cap
- Force the GM to use the scouting available
- force the GM to keep the contract for 3 year
- forces the GM to be smart with who they offer because signing the wrong player has a 2 year affect minimum
- forces the GM to plan ahead, both for what classes they want to target but also managing to make sure they can handle a bust
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 15:18:04 GMT
If there are 0 consequences to offering a rookie a big deal then rookie FA won't work. get rid of minors or limit their demotions if above X dollars otherwise this will be a clusterfuck. Maybe some other idea could work too. you mean this post? get rid of minors? not an actual solution limit by money? half a solution due to not using any actual values maybe some other idea? not a solution so congrats on proposing a bad solution and a half assed one |
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 15:19:20 GMT
My main point of all the above discussion is that there needs to be a risk/reward to offering max level rookies. Doing so accomplishes the below: - Force the GM to be smart with their cap - Force the GM to use the scouting available - force the GM to keep the contract for 3 year - forces the GM to be smart with who they offer because signing the wrong player has a 2 year affect minimum - forces the GM to plan ahead, both for what classes they want to target but also managing to make sure they can handle a bust this is all assuming people are going to suddenly stop paying vets to take risks on unproven players and i absolutely dont think they will |
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Post by TimPig on Jul 16, 2020 15:22:51 GMT
how many 2nd/3rd rounders can we currently extend? just use that same system. If you had all 18 picks in the 2nd round, you could extend each one for a third year. Between the pros and minors, you'd also have the roster space to accommodate it. |
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Post by Majic on Jul 16, 2020 15:23:22 GMT
My main point of all the above discussion is that there needs to be a risk/reward to offering max level rookies. Doing so accomplishes the below: - Force the GM to be smart with their cap - Force the GM to use the scouting available - force the GM to keep the contract for 3 year - forces the GM to be smart with who they offer because signing the wrong player has a 2 year affect minimum - forces the GM to plan ahead, both for what classes they want to target but also managing to make sure they can handle a bust this is all assuming people are going to suddenly stop paying vets to take risks on unproven players and i absolutely dont think they i will I think we will see a fundamental change on how FA and salaries work. Currently teams are given a valuable asset every 2-3 years that. That asset gives them either a cost controlled player with high upside or a a path to acquiring better talent. |
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Post by killybing on Jul 16, 2020 15:23:59 GMT
If there are 0 consequences to offering a rookie a big deal then rookie FA won't work. get rid of minors or limit their demotions if above X dollars otherwise this will be a clusterfuck. Maybe some other idea could work too. you mean this post? get rid of minors? not an actual solution limit by money? half a solution due to not using any actual values maybe some other idea? not a solution so congrats on proposing a bad solution and a half assed one
i mean just because you disagree with the idea of getting rid of the minors doesnt mean it isnt a solution not attaching a dollar value to "limit by money" is so it wont be attacked for having a wrong dollar value, not that it is a half-assed solution. If i had said "limit by 5m" someone might be opposed to the idea because 5m is too low in their opinion, or too high. Obviously we just want to see if people would agree with "limit by dollar amount" in general first and then figure out the best amount later. its called problem solving.
"maybe some other idea" was also a good faith toss out because im sure idiots would get offended i didnt consider or suggest their idea.
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Post by TimPig on Jul 16, 2020 15:48:53 GMT
What if rather than being able to send a rookie down for the duration of their entire rookie contract, it can only be for their actual rookie year or something along those lines?
That'd give GMs one season to try and figure something out with a bust before having them start to hit your cap again.
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Jul 16, 2020 15:59:50 GMT
We can currently extend any 2nd rounder... so ALL rookies can be given 3 years so the GM has Bird rights.
I like majic's proposal of MAX rookies (or those over 'x' amount being ineligible for the minors)... but for those MIN rookies (which are likely going to be the equivalent of 2nd rounders) there needs to be some incentive to develop them... and a 1 year MIN isn't incentive for anyone. Being able to extend them is the only incentive to keep them, develop them, and see if they pan out.
Maybe we do this: Rookies signed to MIN deals only (no MLE, no LLE) can be extended (for cost or free, not sure which feels right) to 3 seasons (use the same structure as current 2nd rounders). No limit on how many can be extended and they don't count toward your yearly cap of 1 (one) $5m or less extension for established players (or MLE/LLE rookies).
That should promote the development of lesser rookies, keep the minor league system alive, encourage capped out teams to invest in rookies, etc.
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Post by TimPig on Jul 16, 2020 16:02:17 GMT
FWIW I'm not entirely sure why MLE/LLE/Extensions cost anything anyway.
2k per year may as well just be free.
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Post by Majic on Jul 16, 2020 17:15:18 GMT
We can currently extend any 2nd rounder... so ALL rookies can be given 3 years so the GM has Bird rights. I like majic's proposal of MAX rookies (or those over 'x' amount being ineligible for the minors)... but for those MIN rookies (which are likely going to be the equivalent of 2nd rounders) there needs to be some incentive to develop them... and a 1 year MIN isn't incentive for anyone. Being able to extend them is the only incentive to keep them, develop them, and see if they pan out. Maybe we do this: Rookies signed to MIN deals only (no MLE, no LLE) can be extended (for cost or free, not sure which feels right) to 3 seasons (use the same structure as current 2nd rounders). No limit on how many can be extended and they don't count toward your yearly cap of 1 (one) $5m or less extension for established players (or MLE/LLE rookies). That should promote the development of lesser rookies, keep the minor league system alive, encourage capped out teams to invest in rookies, etc. I think we go with the 5 million amount. This works nicely with our extension rule and matches nicely with other FA deals that are handed out. 5 million or under you can extend up to 2 additional years (rookie or vet) Over 5 million (rookie) you cannot demote, if contract extends beyond 3 years, the 4th year is a team option. |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Jul 16, 2020 17:39:53 GMT
I don't think we need 4th year option for anything. They are just regular contracts now. If you extend, you are on the hook for those years. If you offer a rookie a 4 year deal, you are on the hook for those years.
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