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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 21:49:48 GMT
Tiered rookie cap based on previous season standings, can trade rookie cap room. i've thought of making it explicitly standings based but i think the current salary cap system largely covers that and will be much simpler the only major difference i can see is if a team has lots of salary and is bad, but i don't consider that a bug. especially once we get rid of rookie deals, it will be extremely difficult to have a team that is both good and has tons of cap room without also having significant players they want to bring back from the previous season plus by making it an explicit function of last year standings, we impose a de facto one year penalty to any team that wants to blow it up. consider the irl 1999 bulls for example, that's not a scenario where we had to limit their rookie fa bidding |
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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 21:52:28 GMT
Ooooooo. Well, we need a work around for that. it's very easy to work around for trades it's extremely difficult to work around for FA bids because FA maxes are scaled to salary cap level, so increasing the cap to let teams make rookie bids also means having to manually *calculate* max bids and then manually input them. obviously the calculation isn't hard for the ol' 12.5m 10%er but overall it's a massive escalation and i really don't see the ROI to let a capped team make more mid level bids |
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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 21:55:33 GMT
ok random idea: what if instead of tc we did improvements solely through the upgrade system. obviously that would require a massive overhaul of many systems but a way of reliably developing the players you draft will make the rookie fa/draft/lotto/wheel conversation largely irrelevant. this is pretty unpopular so far and fwiw i also like the randomness of TC i have been idly considering an increase in the player/yearly team upgrade caps for awhile though, which would be straightforward. nothing massive, maybe something like +30/+40 |
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Post by Druce on May 29, 2020 22:00:25 GMT
Could add a buck reward to buy additional upgrade points for a player or a super camp for 20k that addresses the big categories
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Post by killybing on Jul 15, 2020 20:03:15 GMT
I'm going to bump this because we don't seem to have a great plan on moving forward. I've heard similar concerns from every GM i've interviewed on my podcast, as well as in shout. Those concerns are that I don't think anyone wants to move forward with rookie FA unless we can come up with some type of system to inject yearly tradeable value into teams to make up for losing draft picks that are able to be traded. We've heard a few different ideas: 1) Limiting bid slots and trading those 2) Getting rid of the buck cap 3) Tradeable upgrade slots (for players or teams) 4) additional rewards (like injury cards given to teams each year to heal one of their players from injury) that could be traded 5) getting rid of the sign & trade restrictions
Does anyone have any other ideas? I feel like if we can brainstorm away the problem of tradeable assets then rookie FA can be successful no matter the other details of how it is ran. |
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Post by skrouse on Jul 16, 2020 0:31:23 GMT
Remove salary restrictions on trades, keep SC and HC. You can then trade players/contracts for cap space.
Cap space becomes new draft currency and becomes a tradable asset that can replace picks.
This sounds familiar...
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Post by skrouse on Jul 16, 2020 1:04:04 GMT
Lifting salary trade restrictions has lots benefits and meets eric inside the software criteria.
- simplifies rookie FA implementation
- no special tracking or record keeping
- makes cap space a more flexible asset that can be exchanged between teams over the HC
- no limitations on rookie bids, only limited by available Soft Cap
What are some cons?
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 1:05:00 GMT
limiting bids genuinely makes me want to vomit
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Post by skrouse on Jul 16, 2020 1:06:53 GMT
limiting bids genuinely makes me want to vomit Even by a soft cap the gm can control? |
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 1:24:49 GMT
limiting bids genuinely makes me want to vomit Even by a soft cap the gm can control? i dont consider that limiting bids. im talking about the nonsense that majic wants. |
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 1:47:30 GMT
its a very valid concern that we will be losing an asset thats just given to us each season, so hered my idea to address that:
scouting tokens
lets say everyone gets 5 each season. 1 token = 1 tier of scouting. multiple tokens caan be spent on the same player to increase the tier. 3 tokens = a tier 3 for example.
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Jul 16, 2020 1:48:20 GMT
re: Extensions:
For those rookies signed to MLE, LLE, or MIN deals, eric had this to say in shout:
eric: they can be extended just like any other $5m- contract
I would propose that we up the cap of "1 extension per season" to at least 2, if not 3, so rookies acquired this way can be kept for 3 years to get Birds. We can also make it so that rookie extensions don't count toward that total.
Thoughts?
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Post by killybing on Jul 16, 2020 1:50:21 GMT
its a very valid concern that we will be losing an asset thats just given to us each season, so hered my idea to address that: scouting tokens lets say everyone gets 5 each season. 1 token = 1 tier of scouting. multiple tokens caan be spent on the same player to increase the tier. 3 tokens = a tier 3 for example.
let this be used on in-league players as well to increase their value; otherwise over-the-cap teams won't really want much of these (except to scout out some mins [aka 2nd rounders])
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Post by killybing on Jul 16, 2020 1:51:47 GMT
re: Extensions: For those rookies signed to MLE, LLE, or MIN deals, eric had this to say in shout: eric: they can be extended just like any other $5m- contractI would propose that we up the cap of "1 extension per season" to at least 2, if not 3, so rookies acquired this way can be kept for 3 years to get Birds. We can also make it so that rookie extensions don't count toward that total. Thoughts?
i literally think the exact opposite and thought when reading the first two lines you were going to propose not letting us get to extend rookies (who you can already offer multi-year deals) as easily as the other players
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 1:56:58 GMT
its a very valid concern that we will be losing an asset thats just given to us each season, so hered my idea to address that: scouting tokens lets say everyone gets 5 each season. 1 token = 1 tier of scouting. multiple tokens caan be spent on the same player to increase the tier. 3 tokens = a tier 3 for example.
let this be used on in-league players as well to increase their value; otherwise over-the-cap teams won't really want much of these (except to scout out some mins [aka 2nd rounders])
or we could have access to 5 years worth of tokens, so if you dont have the cap to sign any rookies you can trade them for future tokens or just sell for bucks at worst |
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Post by rw on Jul 16, 2020 2:57:45 GMT
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Jul 16, 2020 13:05:48 GMT
re: Extensions: For those rookies signed to MLE, LLE, or MIN deals, eric had this to say in shout: eric: they can be extended just like any other $5m- contractI would propose that we up the cap of "1 extension per season" to at least 2, if not 3, so rookies acquired this way can be kept for 3 years to get Birds. We can also make it so that rookie extensions don't count toward that total. Thoughts?
i literally think the exact opposite and thought when reading the first two lines you were going to propose not letting us get to extend rookies (who you can already offer multi-year deals) as easily as the other players
That means that anyone over the soft cap can only extend 1 rookie per year. You can't offer a multi-year deal to any rookies if you are over the soft cap. This is to allow teams over that cap to still draft and keep rookies. Otherwise you are going to see franchises (major/minor) unable to grow, develop, and keep rookies. It will deflate interest in 2nd tier rookies and they may die out of the league before anyone knows if they are any good at all.
I don't think it's for the benefit of the league to have a team unable to keep 2 rookies in a single draft year for more than a single season. Those players won't be upgraded, they won't be played outside of Pre-Season, etc. There really should be a mechanism (an exception) to allow Rookie Extensions for "x" players per season, per team, that were signed to MLE, LLE, or MIN deals (since we aren't allowed to sign multi-year MINs)... I don't know what the right number is, but I'm pretty sure it isn't zero. Those extensions shouldn't be the $5m of the current exception... they should match the MLE or LLE, or be $1m for MIN signings... because again... extending an unknown rookie for $5m is not something anyone is going to do.
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 13:12:02 GMT
i literally think the exact opposite and thought when reading the first two lines you were going to propose not letting us get to extend rookies (who you can already offer multi-year deals) as easily as the other players
That means that anyone over the soft cap can only extend 1 rookie per year. You can't offer a multi-year deal to any rookies if you are over the soft cap. This is to allow teams over that cap to still draft and keep rookies. Otherwise you are going to see franchises (major/minor) unable to grow, develop, and keep rookies. It will deflate interest in 2nd tier rookies and they may die out of the league before anyone knows if they are any good at all.
I don't think it's for the benefit of the league to have a team unable to keep 2 rookies in a single draft year for more than a single season. Those players won't be upgraded, they won't be played outside of Pre-Season, etc. There really should be a mechanism (an exception) to allow Rookie Extensions for "x" players per season, per team, that were signed to MLE, LLE, or MIN deals (since we aren't allowed to sign multi-year MINs)... I don't know what the right number is, but I'm pretty sure it isn't zero. Those extensions shouldn't be the $5m of the current exception... they should match the MLE or LLE, or be $1m for MIN signings... because again... extending an unknown rookie for $5m is not something anyone is going to do.
yeah i would agree with a lot of this. we need to develop a system that will allow extending rookies without using our normal <5m extension. |
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Post by killybing on Jul 16, 2020 13:20:49 GMT
Literally the whole point of moving to rookie fa is to stop giving over the cap teams top rookie prospects (timpig wheeling into cp3) and now we want to give those teams morw flexibility to sign any rookie and extend them?
Call me confused
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 13:39:12 GMT
Literally the whole point of moving to rookie fa is to stop giving over the cap teams top rookie prospects (timpig wheeling into cp3) and now we want to give those teams morw flexibility to sign any rookie and extend them? Call me confused well, tim wont be able to sign cp3 for a min and he cant extend what he cant sign |
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Post by killybing on Jul 16, 2020 13:42:46 GMT
Literally the whole point of moving to rookie fa is to stop giving over the cap teams top rookie prospects (timpig wheeling into cp3) and now we want to give those teams morw flexibility to sign any rookie and extend them? Call me confused well, tim wont be able to sign cp3 for a min and he cant extend what he cant sign
sure but he will probably be able to get a top 5 or 6 guy on a MLE and then extend him = stupid
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Jul 16, 2020 13:43:38 GMT
Literally the whole point of moving to rookie fa is to stop giving over the cap teams top rookie prospects (timpig wheeling into cp3) and now we want to give those teams morw flexibility to sign any rookie and extend them? Call me confused
if you are over the soft cap you can only offer an MLE at the most. Elite rookies are gonna get that 8.9, 4 year, 10% offer. This is far more about 2nd round type players, who are gonna lose all value if you can't keep them around for more than a year.
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Post by killybing on Jul 16, 2020 13:45:42 GMT
Literally the whole point of moving to rookie fa is to stop giving over the cap teams top rookie prospects (timpig wheeling into cp3) and now we want to give those teams morw flexibility to sign any rookie and extend them? Call me confused
if you are over the soft cap you can only offer an MLE at the most. Elite rookies are gonna get that 8.9, 4 year, 10% offer. This is far more about 2nd round type players, who are gonna lose all value if you can't keep them around for more than a year.
with the number of teams we have and the number of teams with cap space it seems ... wrong... to think that we won't have rookies that are normally top 8-9 draft picks signing for MLE
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 13:50:03 GMT
if you are over the soft cap you can only offer an MLE at the most. Elite rookies are gonna get that 8.9, 4 year, 10% offer. This is far more about 2nd round type players, who are gonna lose all value if you can't keep them around for more than a year.
with the number of teams we have and the number of teams with cap space it seems ... wrong... to think that we won't have rookies that are normally top 8-9 draft picks signing for MLE
people are far better at cap management these days than they have been in the past. we have more than half the league with a ton of cap each season. and with the ability to demote all of these guys even more cap will be in play. tim may be able to offer an mle, but jhb and ward can offer twice that. so no, i dont think top 10 picks will be routinely signing for an mle. |
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Post by killybing on Jul 16, 2020 13:55:55 GMT
with the number of teams we have and the number of teams with cap space it seems ... wrong... to think that we won't have rookies that are normally top 8-9 draft picks signing for MLE
people are far better at cap management these days than they have been in the past. we have more than half the league with a ton of cap each season. and with the ability to demote all of these guys even more cap will be in play. tim may be able to offer an mle, but jhb and ward can offer twice that. so no, i dont think top 10 picks will be routinely signing for an mle.
And you think people that are intelligent at managing their cap are going to be signing the 6th best rookie for more than 4.5M a year?
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Post by skrouse on Jul 16, 2020 13:57:31 GMT
What are the open questions for this? What are the problems we need to solve for? Is this the full list? - Number of Bids/Bid Limits - Amount of 1st year Salary - Contract length (# of years) - % increase limits - Tradable Asset to replace Picks - When to run Rookie FA bids
What else? |
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 13:58:35 GMT
people are far better at cap management these days than they have been in the past. we have more than half the league with a ton of cap each season. and with the ability to demote all of these guys even more cap will be in play. tim may be able to offer an mle, but jhb and ward can offer twice that. so no, i dont think top 10 picks will be routinely signing for an mle.
And you think people that are intelligent at managing their cap are going to be signing the 6th best rookie for more than 4.5M a year?
100% yes because they can just be demoted then contract value doesnt matter |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Jul 16, 2020 13:59:56 GMT
What are the open questions for this? What are the problems we need to solve for? Is this the full list? - Number of Bids/Bid Limits - Amount of 1st year Salary - Contract length (# of years) - % increase limits - Tradable Asset to replace Picks What else? - Number of Bids/Bid Limits this is resolved. eric said 15 total bids... it's rolled into regular FA, so you get 15 bids per day- Amount of 1st year Salary this is resolved. You can bid up to 8.9m - 4 years - 10% with soft space. If you are over the cap, you can bid MLE, LLE, or MIN- Contract length (# of years) sorta resolved. You can bid up to 4 years with soft space. If you are over the cap, you get a 1 year bid... which is why we are discussing extension rules being separate from established players.- % increase limits - Tradable Asset to replace Picks |
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Post by killybing on Jul 16, 2020 14:10:19 GMT
And you think people that are intelligent at managing their cap are going to be signing the 6th best rookie for more than 4.5M a year?
100% yes because they can just be demoted then contract value doesnt matter
so we're literally creating a league where anyone over the cap is just automatically fucked because every maybe-good rookie is automatically signed to a giant deal and then demoted by the teams that have cap?
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Post by Logan on Jul 16, 2020 14:10:41 GMT
What are the open questions for this? What are the problems we need to solve for? Is this the full list? - Number of Bids/Bid Limits - Amount of 1st year Salary - Contract length (# of years) - % increase limits - Tradable Asset to replace Picks What else? - Number of Bids/Bid Limits this is resolved. eric said 15 total bids... it's rolled into regular FA, so you get 15 bids per day- Amount of 1st year Salary this is resolved. You can bid up to 8.9m - 4 years - 10% with soft space. If you are over the cap, you can bid MLE, LLE, or MIN- Contract length (# of years) sorta resolved. You can bid up to 4 years with soft space. If you are over the cap, you get a 1 year bid... which is why we are discussing extension rules being separate from established players.- % increase limits - Tradable Asset to replace Picks increases would also be resolved by the same thing as 1st year salary so really its just: assets extension rules anything else we havent thought of yet |
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