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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 19:26:16 GMT
👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 wee2dee Majic TimPig skrouse @odin kn88 Muzunga Mike jhb kujo @freshman Druce pointyegg andrewluckSince people are hot to trot about it here are the thoughts I was going to post eventually anyway. We are going to rookie FA for the "draft" class of 2047. . There are two things that will not happen: Running free agency run outside of the software - people have talked about a more involved formula. There was a time when we tried to just do the current FA formula outside the software and it didn't happen. Delaying the season - the whole point of rookie FA is that capped teams will have extremely limited participation. One day of dead time for capped teams is acceptable, two or three days is a non starter. . Other than that it's all open to discussion. Here are the points I think are most pressing. 1. What salary rules? The first option is to have none beyond what the software imposes: $12.5m starting salary, 6 years, 10% raises, soft cap space required for anything beyond a min bid. I think this is a very bad idea because it means whoever signs a rookie to that deal is absolutely guaranteed to retain them when they get off it. $18.75m * 105% = $19,687,500 but since they'll have six years experience every other GM will only be able to start a contract at $12,500,000. I tested a seven year flat $19,687,500 contract against 28 other bids of first maxes and the seven year flat won 50 out of 50 times. The second option this suggests is to restrict rookie contracts to that value that won't let the first team have a starting value advantage for a rookie's first max. For a four year deal this is a starting value of $12.5m / 1.05 / (1.1 ^ 3) = $8,944,223 which I would round to $8,900,000 to look neater and make it less annoying for me, that ends up at $11,845,900 and everyone will have to start at $12.5m, although the first team would still be able to offer more years and higher raises just like now. This would still require soft cap space for higher than mins and so capped teams would still have a very tough time getting top rookies, but the team that happens to get a great rookie won't definitely have them locked up for life. . 2. What bid rules? Currently a GM can send as many bids as they want of the same type: a GM can send 15 MLEs, a GM with $12.5 in soft cap can send 15 maxes, etc. Some rookie FA proposals limit teams to tiers, so for example they could only send one max (wherever we set that), two middle tiers, and then unlimited bids on minimums. Some proposals go even further and limit teams to exactly two bids (in the way they're currently limited to two draft picks) and then let teams trade those bids just like draft picks (more on this later). I think all of that is junk and we should make it a free-for-all. . 3. With no draft picks, should we introduce something else with trade value? I think pig pennies are going to be much more in demand due to higher demand for scouts and amnesties, so just upping the pig penny cap should cover it. If anyone can come up with an easy to implement alternative de facto currency, I'm all human ears. . 4. When does rookie FA happen? The simplest way is to just do regular FA with rookies in it, and it's also what people have suggested for IRL rookie FA. As a bonus this necessarily wouldn't delay the season at all or make any extra work for me. It would result in one blank day between playoffs and FA day 1, but I think that's good since resignings and retirings will always be up towards the night of playoffs day, and with no more in-season drafting (what with no more drafting at all) scouts are going to be heavily concentrated and I think it's much better for me and GMs to not have them concentrated within hours of the bid deadline. It's possible to run a rookie-only FA period in the software and then manually edit every rookie onto the right team and contract, but if it takes as many real life days as regular FA we're putting a serious dent in league tempo, and if we run it all in one sim there are going to be some seriously lowball offers that mid tier rookies end up taking because everyone was saving their cap space for (who they thought) the best rookies were, and we're right back in the scenario of vastly underpaid good players that rookie FA is supposed to solve - there's a reason there are tons of min signings on day 5 and not on day 1, and it's not because that's the only day they're made. If we only run day 1 in the software, there will be rookies who don't take a reasonable offer because they have an unreasonable opinion of themselves (see the hilarious resignings demanded every year) and again we're right back in the same scenario. In general I am leery of an option that is objectively worse AND a lot more work for me. Call me crazy. . 5. How much more rookie info should we offer? We currently have some profiles and all draft grades for free, and then scouting can reveal various levels of information for various costs. Since the max cost of a rookie is going up so dramatically it makes sense that we offer more. I think we should see how the scout coach plays out first but we'll probably do a blanket lowering of scout costs. The draft sheet I built already has attribute grades in ABCDF form and it wouldn't be difficult to add that onto the draft htm I make, so that's another option. It would be an extremely busy spreadsheet visually but these are the breaks.
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Post by TimPig on May 29, 2020 19:32:52 GMT
First impression: this sounds like a hell of an ordeal and you've outlined five discussion points, zero of which will see unanimous agreement.
This feels like we're just asking to burn this place down.
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Post by killybing on May 29, 2020 19:34:03 GMT
1.
I agree
2.
I agree
3.
I agree with everything but wonder about What do you propose the limit be raised to? What about no limit?
4.
I agree with everything but wonder about What about running a rookie-only FA period in 2 sims? Would that be too much of a damper but yet allow teams to send a second set of bids after Day 1/2?
5.
I agree; I have no opinion don't mind more info or the same.
Thanks eric for this post it was awesome.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2020 19:42:34 GMT
i read all of those words. here my responses to each point:
1. 2nd option makes sense and ive always been of the opinion that their maxes shouldnt start at 12.5
2. yes, ffa
3. lets ignore the soft cap for trades and go no limit on pennies so it can be very soccer like
4. i think rookie only fa is probably a good idea. we would only need one sim of it. sim 2-4 days, whatever some tests indicate is the best option, then edit and run normal fa from day 1. 1 day wouldnt be enough to get a substantial amount of rooks to sign but 5 is definitely too many.
5. i am always a fan of more info
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Post by skrouse on May 29, 2020 19:45:47 GMT
no time now but will read tonight
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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 20:06:25 GMT
First impression: this sounds like a hell of an ordeal and you've outlined five discussion points, zero of which will see unanimous agreement. This feels like we're just asking to burn this place down. i think it's fair to say i don't generally have a prerequisite for change being unanimous agreement and even if it is a catastrophe i think it might be better to close 5.0 with an ! rather than an ..., have a clean break for 6.0 |
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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 20:08:38 GMT
1. I agree 2. I agree 3. I agree with everything but wonder about What do you propose the limit be raised to? What about no limit? 4. I agree with everything but wonder about What about running a rookie-only FA period in 2 sims? Would that be too much of a damper but yet allow teams to send a second set of bids after Day 1/2? 5. I agree; I have no opinion don't mind more info or the same. Thanks eric for this post it was awesome. as always i believe in taking changes step by step. i think a 50k cap is a good number to start with for the first season, and we can adjust upward from there if necessary |
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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 20:10:34 GMT
i read all of those words. here my responses to each point: 1. 2nd option makes sense and ive always been of the opinion that their maxes shouldnt start at 12.5 2. yes, ffa 3. lets ignore the soft cap for trades and go no limit on pennies so it can be very soccer like 4. i think rookie only fa is probably a good idea. we would only need one sim of it. sim 2-4 days, whatever some tests indicate is the best option, then edit and run normal fa from day 1. 1 day wouldnt be enough to get a substantial amount of rooks to sign but 5 is definitely too many. 5. i am always a fan of more info it would be easy enough in the software to ignore the soft cap for trades, i'd just bump it up before processing and bump it down after obviously this is a pretty dramatic change though so i would want more feedback from the league on it it's also worth pointing out that one of the driving forces behind rookie fa is to reduce the ability of good teams to stay good forever, and soccer has by far and away the least effective system for that, although no limit trades isn't the only reason |
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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 20:15:01 GMT
to the point of a middle ground rookie only fa sim, i just don't think we can give enough players enough chance to sign without doing all 5 days, and i don't see any way to give people enough chance to bid without either significantly slowing down the offseason or significantly compressing the time people have to make moves, both of which seem bad to me
just some quick stats from last year
day 1-3: 23 signings, 5 sub $5m
day 4: 8 signings, 6 sub $5m
day 5: 27(!) signings, 24 sub $5m
players just wait as long as they can to get the deals they think they deserve, and almost no one thinks they deserve a min
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Post by Muzunga on May 29, 2020 20:15:23 GMT
Ok, what about we do rookie FA like baseball does international player pool money. So each team gets x dollars that can be used to bid on players, and those dollars are also tradeable.
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on May 29, 2020 20:27:35 GMT
Kyrie Irving - 7 years - $21,000,000 (flat)
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Post by Majic on May 29, 2020 20:34:26 GMT
1) I like option 2, there should be some limit to the salary. I also think there should be a minimum salary that can be offered.
2) I like the option of limiting the amount of bids, create a bid tier system: 1 max, 1 mid level and one minimum bid.
3) If we did something along the lines of what I proposed above, could there be a market where capped out teams can trade their bids?
Example:
Team A is maxed out and will only be offering minimum deals.
Team B has all available cap space and Player X it no longer wants.
Team B trade Player X for Team A's Max Rookie FA Offer slot.
does that make sense?
4) I personally like the idea of containing Rookie FA to be the only FA run on Day 1, or at least reserving that Day for only FA. Or at the very least leave Day for rookies, any that dont sign can then be signed on Days 2-5. I also would suggest any offer made on Day 1 has a minimum value. You cant try to lowball a rookie with a deal on Day 1 and are forced to offer a fair market deal.
5) First thought I had was some sort of summit like we used to do, or some form of "college stats" that can be interpreted to sim league. A lowering of the costs would be a necessary thing. I mentioned on the pod but some GMs are less active when it comes to Penny earning, if we are forcing them to put in ALOT more effort to team building then we also should give them easier access to information that could help.
I also personally think the top tier guys should be far more likely to succeed. Missing on a draft pick doesnt hurt much because you can get out of the contract after 2 years, and even then the first 2 years are low salaries. bidding a max deal and then being stuck with a high salary for multiple years would be tough to swallow.
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on May 29, 2020 20:40:39 GMT
1. Option 2
2. Unlimited bids (up to 15, like now)... MAX bids only with soft space, MLE/MINs for everyone (eric's definition of rookie MAX (only final year can be declined), MLE for 4 years (last 2 can be declined), MIN = $2m per (last 2 years can be declined)
3. Up the cap
4. Concurrent with FA is good
5. Whatever
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Post by Majic on May 29, 2020 20:48:11 GMT
Ok, what about we do rookie FA like baseball does international player pool money. So each team gets x dollars that can be used to bid on players, and those dollars are also tradeable. I really like this idea too. it helps even out the offers and creates a trade-able asset. seems we could track it somewhat easily too. Create a "owed draft money" thread that shows everyones yearly amount. |
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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 20:54:26 GMT
Kyrie Irving - 7 years - $21,000,000 (flat) notably, the winning bid for kyrie started at $17.5m |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on May 29, 2020 20:57:45 GMT
Kyrie Irving - 7 years - $21,000,000 (flat) notably, the winning bid for kyrie started at $17.5m
I request a 50x simulation of 21 flat for 7 v 17.5 with raises for 6.
I will pay you in Stanley Nickels, TimPig Bucks, or Jefferson 2 Dollar Bills
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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 21:01:12 GMT
1) I like option 2, there should be some limit to the salary. I also think there should be a minimum salary that can be offered. 2) I like the option of limiting the amount of bids, create a bid tier system: 1 max, 1 mid level and one minimum bid. 3) If we did something along the lines of what I proposed above, could there be a market where capped out teams can trade their bids? Example: Team A is maxed out and will only be offering minimum deals. Team B has all available cap space and Player X it no longer wants. Team B trade Player X for Team A's Max Rookie FA Offer slot. does that make sense? 4) I personally like the idea of containing Rookie FA to be the only FA run on Day 1, or at least reserving that Day for only FA. Or at the very least leave Day for rookies, any that dont sign can then be signed on Days 2-5. I also would suggest any offer made on Day 1 has a minimum value. You cant try to lowball a rookie with a deal on Day 1 and are forced to offer a fair market deal. 5) First thought I had was some sort of summit like we used to do, or some form of "college stats" that can be interpreted to sim league. A lowering of the costs would be a necessary thing. I mentioned on the pod but some GMs are less active when it comes to Penny earning, if we are forcing them to put in ALOT more effort to team building then we also should give them easier access to information that could help. I also personally think the top tier guys should be far more likely to succeed. Missing on a draft pick doesnt hurt much because you can get out of the contract after 2 years, and even then the first 2 years are low salaries. bidding a max deal and then being stuck with a high salary for multiple years would be tough to swallow. the issue with fair market deal and more likely to succeed is it's really up to TC, which i have no control over and so no ability to predict before it happens this prompts the question of should we do away with TC entirely and give players more defined growth curves; i.e. a 100 potential rookie will always improve significantly, a 60 potential rookie will always stay pretty much the same like with odin's thing this is a much larger point that would require more specific discussion all i'll add is that (as i'm sure every other commish can agree with) there are many players i've built who i thought would be great and were lousy and vice versa. one that always strikes me is i definitely did not expect Juwan Howard to become the best defender in the league, and even coming into the league at age 21 that's just the way his TCs shook out, and the variance is even higher for teens |
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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 21:02:11 GMT
1. Option 2 2. Unlimited bids (up to 15, like now)... MAX bids only with soft space, MLE/MINs for everyone (eric's definition of rookie MAX (only final year can be declined), MLE for 4 years (last 2 can be declined), MIN = $2m per (last 2 years can be declined) 3. Up the cap 4. Concurrent with FA is good 5. Whatever an important point is that in the software there is no such thing as a four year MLE a team over the soft cap can send the MLE, LLE, or min, and that's it |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on May 29, 2020 21:04:25 GMT
1. Option 2 2. Unlimited bids (up to 15, like now)... MAX bids only with soft space, MLE/MINs for everyone (eric's definition of rookie MAX (only final year can be declined), MLE for 4 years (last 2 can be declined), MIN = $2m per (last 2 years can be declined) 3. Up the cap 4. Concurrent with FA is good 5. Whatever an important point is that in the software there is no such thing as a four year MLE a team over the soft cap can send the MLE, LLE, or min, and that's it
Is extending it a non-starter on your end? That's what I'm saying... offer MLE or whatever value (I guess we just make a 4.5m bid legal in for rookies?)
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on May 29, 2020 21:05:04 GMT
1) I like option 2, there should be some limit to the salary. I also think there should be a minimum salary that can be offered. 2) I like the option of limiting the amount of bids, create a bid tier system: 1 max, 1 mid level and one minimum bid. 3) If we did something along the lines of what I proposed above, could there be a market where capped out teams can trade their bids? Example: Team A is maxed out and will only be offering minimum deals. Team B has all available cap space and Player X it no longer wants. Team B trade Player X for Team A's Max Rookie FA Offer slot. does that make sense? 4) I personally like the idea of containing Rookie FA to be the only FA run on Day 1, or at least reserving that Day for only FA. Or at the very least leave Day for rookies, any that dont sign can then be signed on Days 2-5. I also would suggest any offer made on Day 1 has a minimum value. You cant try to lowball a rookie with a deal on Day 1 and are forced to offer a fair market deal. 5) First thought I had was some sort of summit like we used to do, or some form of "college stats" that can be interpreted to sim league. A lowering of the costs would be a necessary thing. I mentioned on the pod but some GMs are less active when it comes to Penny earning, if we are forcing them to put in ALOT more effort to team building then we also should give them easier access to information that could help. I also personally think the top tier guys should be far more likely to succeed. Missing on a draft pick doesnt hurt much because you can get out of the contract after 2 years, and even then the first 2 years are low salaries. bidding a max deal and then being stuck with a high salary for multiple years would be tough to swallow. the issue with fair market deal and more likely to succeed is it's really up to TC, which i have no control over and so no ability to predict before it happens this prompts the question of should we do away with TC entirely and give players more defined growth curves; i.e. a 100 potential rookie will always improve significantly, a 60 potential rookie will always stay pretty much the same like with odin's thing this is a much larger point that would require more specific discussion all i'll add is that (as i'm sure every other commish can agree with) there are many players i've built who i thought would be great and were lousy and vice versa. one that always strikes me is i definitely did not expect Juwan Howard to become the best defender in the league, and even coming into the league at age 21 that's just the way his TCs shook out, and the variance is even higher for teens
The randomness of TC is a beautiful thing.
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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 21:05:06 GMT
Ok, what about we do rookie FA like baseball does international player pool money. So each team gets x dollars that can be used to bid on players, and those dollars are also tradeable. the FA interface does make it very easy to see which players are rookies and so it would be very easy for me to see if a team went over their dollar amount i don't feel strongly about this either way, just giving practical data |
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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 21:06:41 GMT
an important point is that in the software there is no such thing as a four year MLE a team over the soft cap can send the MLE, LLE, or min, and that's it Is extending it a non-starter on your end? That's what I'm saying... offer MLE or whatever value (I guess we just make a 4.5m bid legal in for rookies?)
extending it would be very easy, it would just be much less competitive than for example a 4yr $5m deal since as far as the FA algorithm is concerned it would be a 1yr $4.5m |
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Post by eric on May 29, 2020 21:07:48 GMT
another point of majic's i wanted to touch on - i'm happy using the current system of minimum contracts because a lot of rookies were signed to deals that low anyway. i'm not absolutely opposed to increasing the rookie min that can be bidded, i'm just happy with not doing so
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2020 21:11:26 GMT
ok random idea:
what if instead of tc we did improvements solely through the upgrade system. obviously that would require a massive overhaul of many systems but a way of reliably developing the players you draft will make the rookie fa/draft/lotto/wheel conversation largely irrelevant.
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on May 29, 2020 21:12:01 GMT
Software doesn't acknowledge soft cap, right?
So would it work that we could use:
Rookie MAX (your definition) for those with soft space
Rookie MID (4.5m, 4 years)
Rookie MIN (1.2, 4 years)
and teams with no soft space can send MID and MIN bids?
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2020 21:12:35 GMT
Software doesn't acknowledge soft cap, right? So would it work that we could use: Rookie MAX (your definition) for those with soft space Rookie MID (4.5m, 4 years) Rookie MIN (1.2, 4 years) and teams with no soft space can send MID and MIN bids? no, it only acknowledges soft cap |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on May 29, 2020 21:24:53 GMT
Ooooooo. Well, we need a work around for that.
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Post by TimPig on May 29, 2020 21:38:18 GMT
this prompts the question of should we do away with TC entirely and give players more defined growth curves; i.e. a 100 potential rookie will always improve significantly, a 60 potential rookie will always stay pretty much the same My god, please no. |
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Post by Druce on May 29, 2020 21:42:02 GMT
Why doesn’t someone here just write the software for a brand new game?
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Post by Druce on May 29, 2020 21:43:34 GMT
Tiered rookie cap based on previous season standings, can trade rookie cap room.
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