So... (413 views)

[Druce]

Do I just lose birds on my minor league guys now since the minors were inexplicably demolished over a weekend?

[eric]

yes

fwiw the announcement was friday

[killybing]

i thought it was weird it happened right in the middle of the season and we had literally 2 sims to do it or we lost all our guys

i was pretty busy this weekend but luckily i checked in on my phone

[skrouse]

What is the problem exactly? Eric shifted the system, you still had time to promote guys you wanted to maintain birds on. What am I missing?

[Druce]

Oct 24, 2020 12:37:42 GMT skrouse said:

What is the problem exactly? Eric shifted the system, you still had time to promote guys you wanted to maintain birds on. What am I missing?

Is this a serious question? You don’t check the board for 2/3 mid season sims and boom you lose your minor league guys. I mean that’s pretty ridiculous

[skrouse]

Oct 25, 2020 0:36:44 GMT Druce said:

Oct 24, 2020 12:37:42 GMT skrouse said:

What is the problem exactly? Eric shifted the system, you still had time to promote guys you wanted to maintain birds on. What am I missing?

Is this a serious question? You don’t check the board for 2/3 mid season sims and boom you lose your minor league guys. I mean that’s pretty ridiculous

Rule for Birds for minors was put in place last season or the one before. To keep those guys you had to promote by sim 9. The timing and posting of a move did not change, just the format/process. Stop bitching. 

[killybing]

Oct 25, 2020 2:27:18 GMT skrouse said:

Oct 25, 2020 0:36:44 GMT Druce said:

Is this a serious question? You don’t check the board for 2/3 mid season sims and boom you lose your minor league guys. I mean that’s pretty ridiculous

Rule for Birds for minors was put in place last season or the one before. To keep those guys you had to promote by sim 9. The timing and posting of a move did not change, just the format/process. Stop bitching. 

except that isn't what happened. all of druce's minor league players got cut sim 5 because he didnt check in between sim 3 and sim 5

[Logan]

i do think we probably should have had more time. we generally dont
get changes like that midseason.

[skrouse]

Oct 25, 2020 3:03:14 GMT killybing said:

Oct 25, 2020 2:27:18 GMT skrouse said:

Rule for Birds for minors was put in place last season or the one before. To keep those guys you had to promote by sim 9. The timing and posting of a move did not change, just the format/process. Stop bitching. 

except that isn't what happened. all of druce's minor league players got cut sim 5 because he didnt check in between sim 3 and sim 5

Missed the "they will be cut by sim 5" line, I thought he just lost birds on expiring players not promoted. Then I agree, he should get those that weren't on expiring deals back. 

[skrouse]

I saw his minor roster and didn't realize the players had been cut, resigned and bird's lost. They should have their contracts restored, that is crap. Not the type of action we need to see if the league is going to retain GMs.

eric, I side with the people here. A lot of guys are MIA over the weekends. Especially those of us with kids. Cant make big rule changes over the weekend like that IMO

[killybing]

Oct 25, 2020 12:19:27 GMT skrouse said:

I saw his minor roster and didn't realize the players had been cut, resigned and bird's lost. They should have their contracts restored, that is crap. Not the type of action we need to see if the league is going to retain GMs.

eric , I side with the people here. A lot of guys are MIA over the weekends. Especially those of us with kids. Cant make big rule changes over the weekend like that IMO

Yeah. No bad thoughts toward Eric it was just a weird decision by him. It was probably motivated by him wanting to get it settled before the next promotion or demotion period, but when was the last time a rule change happened mid season? And when was the consequences of not doing it getting like 6 of your players cut?

eric I think everyone would be OK with you just putting druces players back into the minors since the rule change timing and consequence were fairly out of line compared to precedent

[eric]

implementing minor leagues is my biggest regret as commissioner, it's been a tiny benefit for a huge pain for everyone. right now it's not going to be part of 6.0

if anyone had unknowingly gone over the hard cap friday we wouldn't have given them until monday to fix it, so the skipping weekends argument is not compelling for me, especially since friday isn't a weekend, it's a weekday

and fwiw druce didn't have any birds on his minor league guys to start with, i don't know where this "birds lost" thing is coming from, they're all rookies

[Logan]

Oct 25, 2020 14:11:44 GMT eric said:

implementing minor leagues is my biggest regret as commissioner, it's been a tiny benefit for a huge pain for everyone. right now it's not going to be part of 6.0

if anyone had unknowingly gone over the hard cap friday we wouldn't have given them until monday to fix it, so the skipping weekends argument is not compelling for me, especially since friday isn't a weekend, it's a weekday

and fwiw druce didn't have any birds on his minor league guys to start with, i don't know where this "birds lost" thing is coming from, they're all rookies

nerf robots and i'll vote to kill the minors

[eric]

and to people who want to know what the "precedent", the precedent is this is the first time a system has broken down during the season, so it was the first time a system had to be fixed during the season

it's not a coincidence the people who are unaware of how broken the system was were single-GMing a minor league affiliate

[killybing]

Oct 25, 2020 14:19:49 GMT eric said:

and to people who want to know what the "precedent", the precedent is this is the first time a system has broken down during the season, so it was the first time a system had to be fixed during the season

it's not a coincidence the people who are unaware of how broken the system was were single-GMing a minor league affiliate

i, for one, support a system where we get rid of this new precedent that blows and instead apply some specific fix to address the small during-season issue, and then changing the rule for the entire league during the offseason as usual

i.e. for this issue, just stick the extra player on another minor team (small specific fix), then change the minor league system during the following offseason (league-wide fix)

as a gm, i would support a precedent being established that we don't have any major rule changes during the season

[eric]

Oct 25, 2020 15:03:08 GMT killybing said:

Oct 25, 2020 14:19:49 GMT eric said:

and to people who want to know what the "precedent", the precedent is this is the first time a system has broken down during the season, so it was the first time a system had to be fixed during the season

it's not a coincidence the people who are unaware of how broken the system was were single-GMing a minor league affiliate

i, for one, support a system where we get rid of this new precedent that blows and instead apply some specific fix to address the small during-season issue, and then changing the rule for the entire league during the offseason as usual

i.e. for this issue, just stick the extra player on another minor team (small specific fix), then change the minor league system during the following offseason (league-wide fix)

as a gm, i would support a precedent being established that we don't have any major rule changes during the season

even after the fact you can't come up with a better solution, nor has anyone else. what made the system broken was keeping track of which team had rights to which players, adding another minor league team to keep track of on top of it would only have exacerbated the break - you've gotten a taste for trying to keep track of players on different teams, how well is it going for you? how'd you like to do it for eight different GMs at once? for how long?

and on top of that worse solution, you want to establish a precedent where "major" rule changes during the season don't happen. if "major" means "one GM complains" every rule change is major, and we either get to litigate every ruling during a season (hasn't this been fun? hasn't this been a great use of our collective time?) or we never change anything during the season, even when it's obviously better, and people will complain about that and we get to litigate every change that ISN'T made instead (won't that be fun? won't that be a great use of our collective time?)

or

one GM who was off the board for three days will have slightly shorter contracts on a bunch of second and third rounders who weren't good enough to make the majors anyway. they weren't deleted. he wasn't fined. he didn't forfeit cap space or any other asset.

can we move on?

[killybing]

well at least the new status quo promotes visiting the board every day

[Druce]

Oct 25, 2020 14:11:44 GMT eric said:

implementing minor leagues is my biggest regret as commissioner, it's been a tiny benefit for a huge pain for everyone. right now it's not going to be part of 6.0

if anyone had unknowingly gone over the hard cap friday we wouldn't have given them until monday to fix it, so the skipping weekends argument is not compelling for me, especially since friday isn't a weekend, it's a weekday

and fwiw druce didn't have any birds on his minor league guys to start with, i don't know where this "birds lost" thing is coming from, they're all rookies

uh what? I've had DeRozen for 3 seasons, and now he's an expiring that I don't have birds on to re-sign. 

[skrouse]

Oct 26, 2020 12:44:12 GMT Druce said:

Oct 25, 2020 14:11:44 GMT eric said:

implementing minor leagues is my biggest regret as commissioner, it's been a tiny benefit for a huge pain for everyone. right now it's not going to be part of 6.0

if anyone had unknowingly gone over the hard cap friday we wouldn't have given them until monday to fix it, so the skipping weekends argument is not compelling for me, especially since friday isn't a weekend, it's a weekday

and fwiw druce didn't have any birds on his minor league guys to start with, i don't know where this "birds lost" thing is coming from, they're all rookies

uh what? I've had DeRozen for 3 seasons, and now he's an expiring that I don't have birds on to re-sign. 

Yeah DeRozen was a 1.7 - I think he should have his contract restored.

Any others?

[skrouse]

Oct 25, 2020 21:34:56 GMT eric said:

Oct 25, 2020 15:03:08 GMT killybing said:

i, for one, support a system where we get rid of this new precedent that blows and instead apply some specific fix to address the small during-season issue, and then changing the rule for the entire league during the offseason as usual

i.e. for this issue, just stick the extra player on another minor team (small specific fix), then change the minor league system during the following offseason (league-wide fix)

as a gm, i would support a precedent being established that we don't have any major rule changes during the season

even after the fact you can't come up with a better solution, nor has anyone else. what made the system broken was keeping track of which team had rights to which players, adding another minor league team to keep track of on top of it would only have exacerbated the break - you've gotten a taste for trying to keep track of players on different teams, how well is it going for you? how'd you like to do it for eight different GMs at once? for how long?

and on top of that worse solution, you want to establish a precedent where "major" rule changes during the season don't happen. if "major" means "one GM complains" every rule change is major, and we either get to litigate every ruling during a season (hasn't this been fun? hasn't this been a great use of our collective time?) or we never change anything during the season, even when it's obviously better, and people will complain about that and we get to litigate every change that ISN'T made instead (won't that be fun? won't that be a great use of our collective time?)

or

one GM who was off the board for three days will have slightly shorter contracts on a bunch of second and third rounders who weren't good enough to make the majors anyway. they weren't deleted. he wasn't fined. he didn't forfeit cap space or any other asset.

can we move on?

If it was all 2nd and 3rd rounders, I would agree with you. But if we didn't have the minors, I'm pretty sure DeRozen would have been on the Grizz roster.

[Majic]

I am always team "lets be rational" and a situation like this would never happen in real life. Outside of the board we all have lives and families and sometimes dont have the ability to stay on top of things, especially over a weekend.

For instance, I was sick on Friday and then extremely busy all weekend. I hadnt checked the board since Thursday, but I also knew that there wouldnt be a need as we were in the middle of the season and I would be back before anything major needed taken care of.

I cant speak for Druce, or any GM, but I think its fair to say that life happens. And in those situations I mostly think we should be realistic and not screw over GM's.

[eric]

Oct 26, 2020 13:19:48 GMT Majic said:

I am always team "lets be rational" and a situation like this would never happen in real life. Outside of the board we all have lives and families and sometimes dont have the ability to stay on top of things, especially over a weekend.

For instance, I was sick on Friday and then extremely busy all weekend. I hadnt checked the board since Thursday, but I also knew that there wouldnt be a need as we were in the middle of the season and I would be back before anything major needed taken care of.

I cant speak for Druce, or any GM, but I think its fair to say that life happens. And in those situations I mostly think we should be realistic and not screw over GM's.

then i'll ask again - if you had unknowingly gone over the hard cap last thursday, would we give you until today to address it?

if a gm being busy is allowed to not follow the rules, how busy is busy enough? if the GM had been on the board for five minutes, do the rules now apply to them? twenty minutes? do we track their socials to see what they're up to? how do we make this enforceable?

if druce wasn't your friend would you still be advocating we give him a break? if he was someone you disliked? delap didn't get a minor league promotion he wanted, where's the clamor for him? do we only let the people who make a lot of noise not follow the rules? how do we make this objective?

rational isn't my goal, objective and enforceable is my goal. if we make up times rules retroactively don't apply as we go, we don't have rules, and like i said when every single event is open to argument every single event will be argued. even this single event has already been argued multiple ways - first it was losing minor league guys, then it okay he didn't lose them but he doesn't have birds on them, then it was well okay it's just one guy. do we really want to go through this every single time something happens? what's "rational" about expecting GMs to not argue when something happens they don't like?

[Logan]

i mean this is just another example of unnecessary time based restrictions on everything.

some people have shit to do. not me, i definitely have nothing better to do than check the board several times per day. but im not married, i dont work, i dont have children. if i did i probably wouldnt bother trying to be a part of this league considering the collosal lack of empathy from eric.

[killybing]

Oct 26, 2020 14:48:46 GMT eric said:

Oct 26, 2020 13:19:48 GMT Majic said:

I am always team "lets be rational" and a situation like this would never happen in real life. Outside of the board we all have lives and families and sometimes dont have the ability to stay on top of things, especially over a weekend.

For instance, I was sick on Friday and then extremely busy all weekend. I hadnt checked the board since Thursday, but I also knew that there wouldnt be a need as we were in the middle of the season and I would be back before anything major needed taken care of.

I cant speak for Druce, or any GM, but I think its fair to say that life happens. And in those situations I mostly think we should be realistic and not screw over GM's.

then i'll ask again - if you had unknowingly gone over the hard cap last thursday, would we give you until today to address it?

if a gm being busy is allowed to not follow the rules, how busy is busy enough? if the GM had been on the board for five minutes, do the rules now apply to them? twenty minutes? do we track their socials to see what they're up to? how do we make this enforceable?

if druce wasn't your friend would you still be advocating we give him a break? if he was someone you disliked? delap didn't get a minor league promotion he wanted, where's the clamor for him? do we only let the people who make a lot of noise not follow the rules? how do we make this objective?

rational isn't my goal, objective and enforceable is my goal. if we make up times rules retroactively don't apply as we go, we don't have rules, and like i said when every single event is open to argument every single event will be argued. even this single event has already been argued multiple ways - first it was losing minor league guys, then it okay he didn't lose them but he doesn't have birds on them, then it was well okay it's just one guy. do we really want to go through this every single time something happens? what's "rational" about expecting GMs to not argue when something happens they don't like?

dude everyone is fine with you enforcing rules

its when you make up a new one with consequences and apply them in a time-frame that isn't appropriate given the normal pace of the league. a weekend to claim your minors players is not an appropriate time frame.

if you get anything from this -- and it seems like you are trying your best to not -- then just please don't make up new rules in the middle of future seasons and we will probably never have this type of problem again

[skrouse]

I don't want to argue about this any longer but I would like to spin this into a positive outcome. If eric won't adjust things in this case then we as GMs can at least somewhat remedy the situation. Everyone simply don't bid on DeRozen this offseason and Druce can have him back for at least a min.

Outside of that specific situation, I think this is a good time to implement a standard for rule changes going forward. I think most of us like the way eric has done it in the past with the Sim 8 Offseason post. I feel that should be the established precedent going forward.

All Rule Changes are posted in the Offseason thread effective after the playoffs. Anyone who fails to comply with said rule change must live with the outcome. This gives everyone 5 sim days plus Playoffs at a minimum to become aware of the new rule and adjust. Based on the responses in this thread, most feel that is a reasonable amount of time.

eric - can we compromise here and get on the same page for rule changes going forward? The rest of can handle Druce's situation.

[Majic]

Oct 26, 2020 14:48:46 GMT eric said:

Oct 26, 2020 13:19:48 GMT Majic said:

I am always team "lets be rational" and a situation like this would never happen in real life. Outside of the board we all have lives and families and sometimes dont have the ability to stay on top of things, especially over a weekend.

For instance, I was sick on Friday and then extremely busy all weekend. I hadnt checked the board since Thursday, but I also knew that there wouldnt be a need as we were in the middle of the season and I would be back before anything major needed taken care of.

I cant speak for Druce, or any GM, but I think its fair to say that life happens. And in those situations I mostly think we should be realistic and not screw over GM's.

then i'll ask again - if you had unknowingly gone over the hard cap last thursday, would we give you until today to address it?

if a gm being busy is allowed to not follow the rules, how busy is busy enough? if the GM had been on the board for five minutes, do the rules now apply to them? twenty minutes? do we track their socials to see what they're up to? how do we make this enforceable?

if druce wasn't your friend would you still be advocating we give him a break? if he was someone you disliked? delap didn't get a minor league promotion he wanted, where's the clamor for him? do we only let the people who make a lot of noise not follow the rules? how do we make this objective?

rational isn't my goal, objective and enforceable is my goal. if we make up times rules retroactively don't apply as we go, we don't have rules, and like i said when every single event is open to argument every single event will be argued. even this single event has already been argued multiple ways - first it was losing minor league guys, then it okay he didn't lose them but he doesn't have birds on them, then it was well okay it's just one guy. do we really want to go through this every single time something happens? what's "rational" about expecting GMs to not argue when something happens they don't like?

Maybe I am not following you but these 2 don't compare in any way. 

an issue with a trade, more specifically that the GMs involved didn't do proper accounting, is not comparable to a complete rule change. 

This also has nothing to do with my relationship with Druce, I expressed in shout last week when the situation happened with Delap that it wasn't exactly fair either. I believe that was Delap misinterpreting the new rules and doing something too late. 

Again, my argument to this entire topic is that the change happened almost out of nowhere, it was posted on a Friday afternoon and the entire league had to understand and complete the task by Sunday morning. 

In the past, anytime we have made rule changes it has happened in the offseason and an announcement was made ahead of time. Even more, we would typically have a discussion thread to work through questions/issues prior to the implementation. 

None of that happened in this situation and I think its fair/warranted to allow for some leniency when it comes to the change over.

[Druce]

I really didn't think this would turn into such a "thing"

[eric]

Oct 26, 2020 15:11:29 GMT killybing said:

Oct 26, 2020 14:48:46 GMT eric said:

then i'll ask again - if you had unknowingly gone over the hard cap last thursday, would we give you until today to address it?

if a gm being busy is allowed to not follow the rules, how busy is busy enough? if the GM had been on the board for five minutes, do the rules now apply to them? twenty minutes? do we track their socials to see what they're up to? how do we make this enforceable?

if druce wasn't your friend would you still be advocating we give him a break? if he was someone you disliked? delap didn't get a minor league promotion he wanted, where's the clamor for him? do we only let the people who make a lot of noise not follow the rules? how do we make this objective?

rational isn't my goal, objective and enforceable is my goal. if we make up times rules retroactively don't apply as we go, we don't have rules, and like i said when every single event is open to argument every single event will be argued. even this single event has already been argued multiple ways - first it was losing minor league guys, then it okay he didn't lose them but he doesn't have birds on them, then it was well okay it's just one guy. do we really want to go through this every single time something happens? what's "rational" about expecting GMs to not argue when something happens they don't like?

dude everyone is fine with you enforcing rules

its when you make up a new one with consequences and apply them in a time-frame that isn't appropriate given the normal pace of the league. a weekend to claim your minors players is not an appropriate time frame.

if you get anything from this -- and it seems like you are trying your best to not -- then just please don't make up new rules in the middle of future seasons and we will probably never have this type of problem again

the rule was posted 1:08 PM on a Friday, not a weekend

since 50 hours was enough time for everyone else, how can an objective observer consider this time frame in any way inappropriate?

[eric]

Oct 26, 2020 15:26:43 GMT Majic said:

Oct 26, 2020 14:48:46 GMT eric said:

then i'll ask again - if you had unknowingly gone over the hard cap last thursday, would we give you until today to address it?

if a gm being busy is allowed to not follow the rules, how busy is busy enough? if the GM had been on the board for five minutes, do the rules now apply to them? twenty minutes? do we track their socials to see what they're up to? how do we make this enforceable?

if druce wasn't your friend would you still be advocating we give him a break? if he was someone you disliked? delap didn't get a minor league promotion he wanted, where's the clamor for him? do we only let the people who make a lot of noise not follow the rules? how do we make this objective?

rational isn't my goal, objective and enforceable is my goal. if we make up times rules retroactively don't apply as we go, we don't have rules, and like i said when every single event is open to argument every single event will be argued. even this single event has already been argued multiple ways - first it was losing minor league guys, then it okay he didn't lose them but he doesn't have birds on them, then it was well okay it's just one guy. do we really want to go through this every single time something happens? what's "rational" about expecting GMs to not argue when something happens they don't like?

Maybe I am not following you but these 2 don't compare in any way. 

an issue with a trade, more specifically that the GMs involved didn't do proper accounting, is not comparable to a complete rule change. 

This also has nothing to do with my relationship with Druce, I expressed in shout last week when the situation happened with Delap that it wasn't exactly fair either. I believe that was Delap misinterpreting the new rules and doing something too late. 

Again, my argument to this entire topic is that the change happened almost out of nowhere, it was posted on a Friday afternoon and the entire league had to understand and complete the task by Sunday morning. 

In the past, anytime we have made rule changes it has happened in the offseason and an announcement was made ahead of time. Even more, we would typically have a discussion thread to work through questions/issues prior to the implementation. 

None of that happened in this situation and I think its fair/warranted to allow for some leniency when it comes to the change over.

it's exactly comparable because a GM who didn't visit the board for days wouldn't know they had to do something, and the rules would say they would be penalized as a result. if we give druce a do-over because he says he didn't check the board, why wouldn't anyone else expect a do-over if they said the same under any circumstances?

"fair" doesn't mean druce gets what he wants, it doesn't even mean he gets what he deserves. it means he gets what the rules say he gets, no matter who he is. going with what feels right when it contradicts the rules isn't fairness, it's chaos, and if you honestly believe nobody would try to exploit that going forward you're kidding yourself

and as far as offseason goes, here's a rule change that happened after sim one so we can stop that