Post by Majic on Sept 10, 2020 16:00:40 GMT
We are quickly approaching the end of 5.0 and I thought it would be a good time to look back on things. Below is a Roundtable discussing a few different topics that look back on 5.0 to discuss the good, the bad, whats changed and where the league is headed.
Thanks to JHB, Druce, Delap, Tim and Skrouse for joining.
Without further adieu.......
1) 5.0 is winding down, let's start by discussing some of your favorite moments of 5.0. List your favorite 3 moments in 5.0. Could be specific players, transactions, teams, titles, really anything.
Skrouse:
3. eric becoming TMBSL Commissioner - This was clearly a highlight that I'm sure most, if not all GMs truly appreciate. eric has added a level of consistency never before seen in TMBSL, at least not in my time. And that is not meant as a knock against anyone but rather an achievement that deserves recognition and appreciation. Bravo Commish.
2. Acquiring Tracy McGrady from Logan for an expiring MLE deal for Livio Jean Charles. Easily my best move as a GM, without TMac I doubt I win any titles.
1. The 2025 title - My first title ever in any iteration of TMBSL. Was so nice I even told my wife about it, and she just loves to hear about my sim basketball league, let me tell ya.
JHB:
1. Title threepeat with Captain Jack/Jonas/God Shammgod core
2. Working out the trade to bring Kevin Garnett and Roy Hibbert to Atlanta
3. BK's title win
Delap: MARCUS TAYLOR WENT +5 AS A 27 YEAR OLD!!!
But seriously, my heart belongs to the gritty 2019 Mavericks, who won my only title and did so as a 5 seed. I've definitely had better teams, but they were my winners. Flags fly forever. I don't really have many concrete specific moments that I could point to, but I still consistently love being here and love most of y'all. I'm really glad we were able to pull together back in 2012/Contraction to keep it going. As a non-sim related moment, I loved the drama surrounding newguy/newishguy/jeezy and I'm so happy that we had the sleuthing necessary to out him and his attempted subterfuge. Screw that guy.
Timpig: I’ve been able to trade for some good draft picks during the wheel era - LeBron James, Oscar Robertson, Jabari Parker, Marvin Williams, Dwyane Wade, Michael Cooper. Drafting and developing is my favorite part of the league, and making the trades for all of those picks let me keep things going for 10+ seasons. Jabari was probably the most satisfying because he wasn’t supposed to turn into a stud.
The Power Hour we did back in the spring shortly after quarantine started was a lot of fun. As I recall, it was the day before my actual birthday and the first one started at like 2pm PT, so I was basically drunk for that entire weekend and attending the initial power hour and the rebroadcast a couple hours later was a nice way to keep things going when I couldn’t leave the house.
We’ve had three new GMs join who seem to actually want to stick around and succeed in Pointyegg, Kujo, and Troybarnes. Big fan of new GMs coming around and it’s good for the league. All three have had their growing pains, but I think are starting to get a handle on how things work. The league would be worse without them.
Druce: My first favorite moment would probably be Qyntel Woods being a beast. I remember back in the day reading his nbadraft.net profile and thinking he was going to be a stud, obviously that never worked out IRL, so I did what I could to make it so in the league and it worked out as I wanted. I enjoyed building prospects quite a bit, even if I didn’t really know wtf I was doing. As for 2 other moments, I had fun building my outside offense team around KD, to kinda go against the current meta was fun and challenging, although ultimately it didn’t matter because #lebron, as for number 3, hell I don’t know I guess the Deandre Ayton trade and everything that surrounded that was fun at the time.
Majic:
1) Both of my title teams were great but overall my second team was my favorite. I was able to win the title with AI as my point guard and finally got David Robinson a title.
2) I actually had some Free Agency success all throughout 5.0 and its something I am quite thankful for. Early on I was able to snag Isaac Bonga and then later on I was able to my towering front court of Dwight Howard and David Robinson. I also have enjoyed uncovering unknown guys and giving them a chance to play.
3) finally pulling off the AJ Guyton trade. Listen, alot of shit went down after the trade, but I had been trying to get him from Druce for several sim seasons and had put together some strong packages for him. Finally he agreed to the trade and I was able to get him in the fold The ensuing shitstorm was not exactly fun to deal with, an eventually lead to Druce quitting again, but overall I was very happy to finally have him on my team.
2) 4.0 to 5.0 resulted in a lot of changes for the league. In addition, we have seen a lot of things change over the course of 5.0’s run. Let's take a look back and break down some of the changes you all thought improved the league. List your top 3 changes in 5.0 in your opinion. Provide a little explanation too please.
Skrouse:
3. Reduction in tanking - I think this can be attributed directly to the wheel. Though controversial, I think the wheel can be noted as an overall good thing for the league given this one benefit alone.
2. Minor Leagues - This is a product of a less than full league but it was a great addition IMO. If only to give gms additional insight on players that would otherwise be stuck on a bench or in FA.
1. eric as commissioner - was no nice I'm listing it twice. As already stated, eric brought a level of consistency to TMBSL schedule that I don't ever recall seeing before. He also brought about new links, new features and new automation. Things we all take for granted every day I'm sure.
JHB:
1. All of the changes to the way in which upgrades work and moving away from the old TC/RC system we had back in 4.0. Gives more flexibility to the GM to upgrade players and I think it allows more different types of players to become viable.
2. Minor leagues and the early 5.0 G-league experiment - anything that gives more players a chance to log meaningful minutes so they can be identified and potentially become useful players is good...it also allows some more avenues for player acquisition and retention that you wouldn't have with only 15 roster spots available
3. The consistency and information provided with Eric as commissioner. It honestly makes the game more fun to play and much easier to fit into your schedule when you know exactly when things are going to happen and you don't pop in to find out that we're on day 3 of no movement or 20 days have surprisingly been simmed since you were last on (Odin certainly wasn't the only commish guilty of this, this is not a shot at him)
Delap: No offense to Logan, Odin, and/or Druce... but the biggest change has been the care of eric's human hands in guiding the league. It's been instrumental in keeping us afloat through the exodus of GMs, contraction, and our recent resurgence to more GMs. I'm a huge fan of the bells/whistles added to give us more tools to analyze our teams (easier stats, etc.), along with the shields/cups/belts. His pbp narrations are also absolutely fantastic. Another major improvement has been the Minor League system, which Odin created ("O" League, right?)... then was perfected post-contraction when we had enough space on real teams to develop 2nd/3rd team players. It's a great wrinkle. I'd rather have 29 active GMs... but if you can't have that, 20 + Minor teams is pretty rad.
Timpig: The Wheel - No tanking, even distribution of draft capital, and multiple new GMs brought to the league. “BuT iT’s NoT fAiR iF yOu GeT 1.1 iN tHe LeBrOn DrAfT”. Remember that Fred VanVleet and Malik Beasley were traded for a pick that could’ve been Karl Malone and created a dominant frontcourt duo alongside Patrick Ewing for over a decade. If that isn’t enough for you, also remember that Olden Polynice was traded for the rights to LeBron James. Or you can instead complain that Alex English wasn’t worthy of a #1 pick without acknowledging that the player who was picked after him has the best field goal % of any wing in 5.0 history and is a top 10 most efficient wing in league history by pts/tsa with positional flexibility and no significant weaknesses. Or that the point guard taken three selections after him is a surefire Hall of Famer, former league MVP, top-two scorer in the league five times, and has made four all-league first teams and been named first team all-defense five times. Or, you know, we can have Kn getting a top-3 pick for 25 consecutive seasons.
Contraction/Expansion - Not sure if it counts, but the ability to expand and contract has kept the league alive. Both 4.0 and early 5.0 allowed for tons of bitching about how CPU teams were run - can they make trades, can they make free agency bids, should they accept re-signings, should their players be upgraded, should we auto-draft for them or skip them, etc. We (eric) removed all of those opportunities for whining and created a system that allowed 5.0 to continue when we saw a mass exodus of GMs early on.
New Positional Caps - Just limiting shot blocking has completely changed the dynamic of the league and made the old software feel new again. Others were put in place to prevent point guard dominance, but those mostly could’ve been avoided through player builds. Other things that deserve an honorable mention include scouting of rookies and play-by-play. We need more of those.
Druce: I really like the draft happening during the season, but I would sacrifice that to get rid of the wheel. I think scouting is great, love it. Profiles are one thing, but getting actual ratings is fantastic. The biggest change has to be in big scoring. Now the league mirrors real life more and that’s fantastic. The research eric has done and provided to the league is a fantastic change as well. I think the league is in a really good spot as far as the rules and stuff are concerned.
Majic:
1) The best change overall has been eric taking over as commissioner. The consistency that eric has provided has given the league much needed stability in a time when it looked like we might be done completely. Everything runs on time, everything runs smoothly and ultimately we all know exactly when league events will take place. In addition, eric has added so much automation and increased use of statistics for everyone to utilize. Even though there are some things I may not like, he has been exactly what the league needed.
2) Contraction / Expansion - I love that we finally were able to come up with a solution that benefited all of the GM’s that were still participating. 4.0 drug on in the last 10+ seasons with half the league not paying attention or caring what was happening. Having the ability to just cut out all unnecessary teams has been awesome and a huge improvement. In addition, I think the expansion process is fair for both the new GM and existing teams. Overall its been awesome to operate as a league with only 12-17 teams.
3) The changes we made to how a player can be upgraded and how you can apply those upgrades. Looking back, the 4.0 model was pretty stupid as it compltely limited the affect a GM could have on upgrading a player. Additionally, the caps we instituted for upgrades has had a huge effect in creating a balanced league. 4.0 bigs were all the same and in 5.0 we have a lot of diversity. It has been awesome to see different styles of teams winning the title.
3) On the flip side, not everything has been for the better, at least some people believe. Looking back to 4.0, or even early 5.0, what are 3 things that changed for worse, in your opinion? As with the last question, provide a little explanation.
Skrouse: I don't have enough memory from the past iterations to really recall what was great which is now worse, so only 1 answer from me here.
1. GM participation - It's been a shame to lose so many good GMs from TMBSL's past. I hope that with 6.0 coming around we get more buy in. And hopefully all of the improvements to the league attract others to stick around.
JHB:
1. I'd like a full roster of GMs like we had in early 4.0. Bringing back some old GMs would be nice - Pete, Fason, Heebs, Ian, Soup. Those guys (outside of Ian who is purely for entertainment value) would make the competition at the top end of the league more difficult for sure.
2. I wish we'd do a bit better job building a more complete league-wide roster of shooting guards and small forwards with actual skills. Stop starting outside grades so low and expecting them to grow. I'm tired of B+ C C C+ C dudes that end up being high-quality players but get paid like bums. It's been a little better lately but that was a big issue for awhile.
3. Tim has gotten more obnoxious now that he's won a bunch of titles
Delap: We've lost a ton of good GMs. There are 10-12 guys out there that could be major additions to the league... many of whom would push me down to mediocre-tier GM rankings, but I want them back anyway. I'm also a bit down on some of the player creation we've seen under eric. For all of his plaudits that he deserves (see above), the players are a bit... robotic. I'd like to see more creativity in their builds to have less cookie-cutter type players. I've tried to be more creative in write-ups, but I don't know how much that has impacted eric's programming. I think he builds too many guys the same and just lets TC do its thing... but I'd like to see some weird builds out there to see what happens a bit more often. Finally, Mafia was way better in 4.0.
Timpig: Upgrades - I like the upgrade system in 5.0 of +25/30 anywhere you want to assign it better than what we had in 4.0 where a player could only receive one +5 skill camp in one attribute per season. I’m not a huge fan of the expanded upgrades we implemented a few seasons back, however. With +30 and a +10 skill camp, it seems that most players can become viable in the league. I like relying on potential and software randomness more heavily.
Ambiguous Positions - I wasn’t sure of a better way to title this, but the combo guard/forward system we tried out in early 5.0 didn’t turn out so great. I understand the sentiment and using those positional assignments to restrict abuse of the software, but tracking it was a disaster and we could’ve avoided tons of complaining by just not giving point guards unreasonable builds.
Loss of GMs - We lost some stalwart GMs early on in guys like Fason, Heebs, Pete, and, to a lesser extent, IanBoyd and Ankly. Eric transitioning from GM to commissioner also lost us a good and active GM. I miss having those guys around as all were good and active GMs with a heavy Shout presence.
Druce: My biggest gripe is the wheel because I don’t think it’s good for competitive balance. I don’t particularly see any reason that a team that is already a top tier team should get handed early draft picks. It makes building a team much easier because you get an influx of top tier cheap talent every couple of years without having to sacrifice an already established player. I think it makes it easier to stay good, and harder to come up from the top because you get limited shots to hit on top picks. I think expansion needs to be tweaked, either less protection slots, or not allowing them to be traded. Not sure I have a 3rd.
Majic:
1) Loss of long tenured GM’s. There have been a few GM’s that I wish we still had around, and honestly am still surprised they decided to call it quits. Fason, Heebs, Pete, Ian, all had a solid place in sim league history, so having any of them back would be a positive.
2) It's been mentioned above but I will state it as well, I have not particularly liked the way that eric creates prospects. To steal Delaps line, it all seems a bit too robotic and overall there seems to be very little variation in the players. Sure, everyone has a different “strength” but beyond that it seems like players ultimately end up looking the same. The way he build them leaves alot up to chance and RNG with how they will progress through TC. I would personally like a little more variation in how they are built that would lead to more dynamic players across the league.
3) This connects with #2, but the complete lack of depth across the league at the wing position. For probably the last 5-10 offseasons there has not been any SF’s that have hit FA that were max worth, or near it. It seems that any wing worth a shit has offered to resign almost every single offseason. I know JHB mentioned this as well, I think alot goes back to the original builds of the players. I would like to see a more consistent output of wing players through the end of 5.0 and into 6.0.
4) Let's do a little self reflection. Give us a short breakdown of your best move in 5.0 history and why.
Skrouse: As mentioned, the trade I pulled off for T-Mac had by far the greatest impact and led to 3 titles. I only had to give up an expiring, aging vet. Outside of that, I'm not sure I've done much to be noteworthy. I've pieced together good teams consistently but to quote arguably the greatest silverscreen racer of all time "If you're not first, you're last."
JHB: Best move is obviously my very fair trade for Kevin Garnett and Roy Hibbert. Its won me two titles so far.
Delap: Drafting and extending Cam Reddish 1.22 in the Creation Draft. Easy. Retired as the all-time WS leader and a 19 year career in one city. I never did enough for him to win, but he was still loyal to me. Probably the best player to never win a title.
Timpig: This one seems like an easy choice for me - trading Olden Polynice for the rights to LeBron James. What made it even better is that I made the trade with someone who is consistently in the rotation for my most hated GM. If I had to pick another, trading an aging Dave Lattin for the rights to Oscar Robertson (even though at the time I thought it’d be Jerry West) or trading Greg Oden who appeared to be regressing at a young age for the 1.3 that eventually turned into Jabari Parker also rank very high up there. All three players were crucial to my dynasty in the 2030s.
Druce: Move that come to mind include swapping Bryant Reeves for Jaylen Brown, the KD trade, taking Ennis in the expansion draft, trading Austin Carr. Those moves helped me build consistent conference championship/finals losing teams, which is the pinnacle of my sim league experience. It doesn’t get any better than that!!!!
Majic: Creating an unstoppable front court that consisted of David Robinson, Dwight Howard and Emeka Okefor and then sticking with them until we finally broke through with a title. This was a mix of FA luck along with some long term planning and drafting. I felt this team should have won a title alot earlier than it did, but I made the decision to stick with the core even when I had no PG option other than AI. Ultimately it led to a title and it was the most enjoyable title I have won yet.
I know I only asked for 1, but a very close second was the decision to trade FVV and Beasley for the haul I got from the Magic. Even though I recently lost Bynum in FA, it has netted me a stud SG and a long term answer at SF.
5) With good sometimes comes bad, what was your worst move of 5.0? What made it so bad?
Skrouse: Overpaying for Malik Beasley and FVV. I think the FVV piece of that deal has worked out OK, but Beasley has not developed offensively like I had hoped. Looking back, I should not have come in with such a strong initial offer. Had I gone with Austin Carr and Bynum for the pair, maybe that was enough. Even if I ended up needing to throw in a 1.8 instead of a 1.2 it would have had a great impact. I think tweaking the deal a little to make it more even, makes that deal better for the Magic in both the short and long term. But overall the value of that trade was diminished on my end by repeated injuries to Smits and Carr. So even if I made a great deal, I can't win without 2 of my best guys unless I have a really deep bench.
JHB: Trading the LeBron pick for Olden Polynice is probably my worst move. In fairness, drafting LeBron only guarantees you 4 years with him and had I drafted him he may have left after the rookie deal with some different sim luck so three titles was still worth it. But if I have to pick one that's the worst. Close second would be getting cute with my cap space and losing Elvis Delle Donne after Year 1 of the reboot.
Delap: 2: trading 3.22 to eric (where he picked HOFer Stan Haynes)... and my fateful decision to +5 shot blocking for F* Al Harrington, thereby locking him into PF. Had I left him as SF eligible I could've paired him and Reddish together for 12 years on the wing and likely would've won a title. I still hadn't fully appreciated the shift in 5.0 to understand that wings are way harder to find than decent bigs. Still hurts.
Timpig: I’ve pointed to trading the rights to Qyntel Woods a few times. For those who missed it, very early on in 5.0 I was very close to having max cap space - within about $1.5 million - and adding the 21st pick (I think that was it) would’ve prevented me from doing so, so I sold it to andrewluck for 1,000 bucks. I had my eye on Woods and was hopeful he’d slip another few picks so I could nab him at 2.1, but Andy grabbed him and he turned into a Hall of Famer.
If I had to pick another, early in 5.0 Antawn Jamison left me in free agency despite receiving a full max coming off of his rookie contract. I had a nice little stew going but that created a huge hole in my lineup, which I panicked and tried to fill my trading some future assets for an aging Clarence Withers, which didn’t turn out well.
Druce: There are no bad moves, only learning experiences.
Majic: My decision to not blow up my last title team, and ultimately delaying a rebuild. I won that title with the towering trio and when things started to reach the end, I incorrectly held on too long. I eventually lost Howard and then traded Okafor, but by then the value was too low. I also, for some odd reason, decided to never trade David Robinson and never capitalized on his insane value. Ultimately this cost me several seasons where my team wasted away with nothing to play for. And with wheel that's never a good thing. I was finally able to hit on some draft picks and trade for Cartwright to get things back to the winning ways, but had I blown up my team shortly after the title, I could have done it a little bit quicker.
6) Let's go a little deeper and discuss some individual players. I think it's fairly known who the 2 best players in 5.0 history are, but let's get everyone's opinion. List your top 5 players in 5.0 history and a little explanation as to why you made your choice.
Skrouse:
5. Giannis Antetokounmpo - Great from the on set, great at scoring while paired with a great scorer and great at rebounding while paired with a great rebounder. Giannis is the 2nd best SF of all time only due to the "Chosen One".
4. Bill Russell - The best defensive player in TMBSL history. The only reason he makes the list is because he was a markedly better defender than pretty much anyone else. He also was an amazing rebounder. Had he and Wilt switch spots, he would have 3+ rings and Wilt may be sitting with 0 instead.
3. Kyrie Irving - Clearly the best scoring PG (that played a full career - See Brain Winter), the problem I have is despite being on good teams, he had a hard time winning. And that just drops him in the rankings
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - I think KAJ was great at every facet a big man can be, I guess he could have passed better but that's about it. I don't think any other big can make that claim. He was a great scorer, rebounder, defender, took care of the ball, scored with efficiency, I mean what more could you want? Like Kyrie, he did only have 1 title, which would be a knock on him, however I don't feel like he ever had a great supporting cast, which was not the case with Irving.
1. LeBron James - Easily the #1 here, he's great at everything and has played for ever. He's the greatest SF by a decent margin given who #5 is on this list. And if 5.0 has taught us (or at least me) one thing it is that the wing positions are far less deep when it comes to the top end of the talent pool. He's the GOAT IMO.
JHB:
1. LeBron James - I think Kareem is the better player overall but LeBron gets #1 for positional scarcity. The delta between him and other elite wings is much larger than Kareem and other elite bigs. Has the hardware to back it up.
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - All-around stud, shame that people seemingly were incapable of building squads around him.
3. Kyrie Irving - I think he's clearly the best outside of LeBron and Kareem and the win shares back that up.
4. Bill Russell - I'm putting him here because of his elite defense and because had he had any help his entire career his win share numbers would probably reflect how truly elite he was.
5. Kawhi Leonard - Fuck what the win shares say, he was a cheat code with his defense on the wings and I think he was a far more impactful player than any metric can reflect.
Delap:
1. LeBron James - no explanation needed. Best player ever. Created very OP... but also got the right TC luck to make him virtually invincible (except when exposed to the one substance that makes him mortal, KryptoNatt)
2. Kyrie Irving - all-time WS leader (for now), owns the Top 10 of individual seasons. All-time scoring leader (for now). Betrayed me before I could betray him.
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - like Kyrie he got 1 title. Dominated for his short career, was never really surrounded with enough talent later in his career.
4. Bill Russell - Best defender we've ever seen... but really never had a chance to play with great players. Darn shame.
5. (tie) Magic Johnson/Oscar Robertson - I'm cheating because I can't pick between them. I'd maybe give Magic the tiiiiiinnnnnyyyyy edge because of his defensive prowess.
Timpig:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Most efficient scorer in league history, elite rebounder, elite defender, no turnover issues. Entered the league completely flawless and, if he entered at 18 like LeBron or Kyrie, would probably be the all-time leader in points, rebounds, and blocks.
LeBron James - The most efficient wing the league has seen and one of the top rebounders at the position. Very good defender as well. Surprisingly didn’t have major turnover issues for much of his career when his build indicated it may have been a problem.
Yao Ming - The second most efficient scorer we’ve seen who also put up almost 12 rebounds and just one turnover per 36 for his career. Incredibly efficient, a defensive stalwart, no turnover problems. Another flawless player, but just a touch below Kareem.
Giannis Antetokounmpo - Hyper-efficient, though not at LeBron’s level in that regard. About equal as a defender, as he was able to average 2.4 bleals per 36 playing small forward exclusively, while LeBron is at 2.5 with a significant chunk of his career spent at power forward. Giannis was also a better rebounder (9.6 per 36 almost exclusively at SF to LeBron’s 9.9 split between two positions) and turned it over way less (1.2 per 36 to 2.0 for LeBron).
Brain Winter - A better scorer than Kyrie and a better defender than Magic. A worse rebounder than both, but still very good for the position. Turnovers were also as much of a non-issue for the Rockets great as they were/are for Kyrie and Magic. The fifth spot was really tough and could’ve gone a number of ways depending on what you value.
Druce: I’m going to go with the top 5 during my time in the league and not during my absence. Lebron, Yao, Giannis, Woods, Jay Williams. The explanation is that they’re all friggin studs.
Majic:
1) Lebron James - this is pretty self explanatory. He has helped lead the Bulls to 7 title, and in a league that is devoid of SF depth, he has absolutely dominated.
2) Kareem Abdul-Jabar - Most efficient scorer in league history, dominant rebounder, elite defensive presence and not a single flaw in his game.
3) Yao Ming - right behind Kareem in terms of efficiency, great rebounding and again, no flaws. Helped lead a dynasty and racked up several championships.
4) Kyrie Irving - best PG we have had in 5.0 and I doubt anyone comes close. Absolutely dominant scoring PG and really had no flaws in his game. He seemed to bounce around a bit, mostly due to his aptitude to explore all FA options.
5) David Robinson - this is a bit of a homer pick, but I dont' care. Robinson was an truly dominant player his entire run in 5.0. He was an elite scorer, strong rebounder and played elite defense. Sure, his TO’s were a bit higher than some might like, but given the frequency he had the ball he made up for in every other way.
7) Create your best all time starting 5…. Go!
Skrouse:
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PF: Simisola Shittu
SF: LeBron James
SG: Tracy McGrady
PG: Brain Winter
JHB:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
LeBron James
Kawhi Leonard
Magic Johnson
You're not scoring on this group and you also have a group of 4 elite rebounders for their positions that would absolutely lock down the boards. This group might approach a 60% rebound rate. Kawhi and Bill aren't great scorers but I think the trio of Kareem, LeBron, and Magic in an inside offense would give plenty of scoring punch. I considered Kyrie at PG and Garnett at PF but I decided Magic would fit better with the offensive aesthetic and that I wanted more defense and rebounding out of the 4 instead of a bit more offensive juice.
Delap: Kyrie, Capt. Jack, LBJ, Kareem, Russell. Plenty of scoring from Kyrie, LBJ, and Kareem. Defense is elite, too.
Timpig:
Do I have to stick to software positions? If not...
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PF - Yao Ming
SF - LeBron James
SG - Gary Bossert
PG - Brain Winter
If so…
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PF - Kevin Garnett
SF - LeBron James
SG - Gary Bossert
PG - Brain Winter
Druce:
Same as above:
PG: Jay
SG: Woods
SF: Giannis
PF: Lebron
C: Yao
Majic:
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PF - David Robinson
SF - Lebron James
SG - Tracy McGrady
PG - Kyrie Irving
Every single player on this list can score, you have elite defense all across the board and your team will dominate the rebounding number.
8) Throughout 5.0 there have been a number of guys that didnt get the recognition they deserve. Give us your top 2 most under-appreciated players in 5.0 history.
Skrouse: Michael Jordan, Vince Carter - Neither made the HOF for some reason. MJ was dealing with a GM that failed to invest in his talent and VC was playing with 2 other greats while still holding his own, especially on the scoring front. I think both deserved more respect.
JHB: This is tough. I would go out on a limb and say #1 should be any defensive wing in the last 20 seasons, especially those that can also give you some offense. Kawhi didn't fall into this category because his wing defense was super-elite, but the main ones I'm thinking of here are the James Worthy types that have managed to play on sub-max contracts their entire career while giving efficient offense (with low volume) and providing a block per game on defense. Alex English is another (poor rebounding hurts his prospects). I wouldn't include guys like Adrian Dantley and Bradley Beal here because they've been paid like elite guys their whole career. I also think the next group of defensive wings of the MKG variety have also been way undervalued. They always seem to pop up on championship-caliber teams. Case in point: Stacey Augmon who should be a HOFer (seriously though he got 80% of his vote). Do the right thing veteran's committee.
I would also like to give a shout out to Vlade Divac and Juwan Howard who I think (outside of Augmon) are the two most tragic omissions from the Hall of Fame and are very deserving.
Delap: My mind immediately goes to 2 players that played together IRL and were together early in their sim career: Tim Duncan and David Robinson... especially David Robinson. They got bounced around teams, locations, etc. a ton and never really got the plaudits either of them deserved. Duncan never topped out as an elite defender, but both of them were crazy efficient scorers and should've been praised more.
Timpig: Michael Jordan - Not in the Hall of Fame and looked down upon because he wasn’t the GOAT, which feels like it’s near impossible for a shooting guard to be in this software. In today’s TMBSL, he’d be a bonafide stud. High efficiency on good volume, excellent defender, no turnover issues. Rebounding wasn’t great, but not a liability either. Imagine if he’d actually received all of his upgrades or a skill camp.
Nick King - Another early TMBSL 5.0 guy, King averaged 21.3 points and 9.4 rebounds with 2 bleals and just 1 turnover per 36 with a career 1.16 pts/tsa. Elite across the board for a guy who could play small forward or shooting guard. Only played 10 seasons and the first few he was a rotational piece, which hampered his Hall of Fame resume.
Druce: I think KD was underappreciated, as he didn’t make HOF. Had he not been stuck in Charlotte he’d have had explosive numbers. Should be in the hall. It also took a long time for Clint Capela to get minutes and prove his worth as a defensive stalwart. I didn’t hold onto him like an idiot, but he’s an HOF worthy defensive stud.
Majic: David Robinson and Michael Jordan. I understand Robinson is a HOF’er but I still think he is overlooked a bit when discussing the best bigs of 5.0. I listed him in my top 5 players of 50 history, so that shows how highly I think of him.
I always felt that Jordan was the victim of his team and GM. Looking back I wonder what Jordan could have done on a team that was built around him and had a GM that was focused. He was an elite scorer, played elite defense and chipped in with solid rebounding numbers for a SG. Again, if the circumstances were different I think MJ could easily have won a couple titles.
9) What is your prediction for the ending of 5.0, will Rookie FA be a success? Explain your thoughts.
Skrouse: Rookie FA will be a success but removal of draft picks as a trade commodity will hurt the league more than Rookie FA helps it. And will thus lead us back to the draft in some format. I think we end up back on the wheel but one customized for TMBSL.
JHB: I predict that Odin will get his first title among a sea of additional Bulls, Hawks, and Globes titles. I also think that Druce will pull off his first title this time as well. I think rookie FA will be a success in the eyes of some and not in the eyes of others, especially once people see some FA luck tilt towards the folks who are already winning.
Delap: I think it will be a "success" as much as Wheel once guys adapt. I anticipate we'll see some GMs MAX rookies that definitely don't deserve it. Looking at players in the 1st 4 years, I'd say each class only has 2-3 that might deserve $9m annually... but I predict we'll see 5-7 get signed each time. It is going to be a real burden for some teams that get spend-happy early in Rookie FA years.
Timpig: I don’t have high hopes for Rookie Free Agency, but mostly because I think that it’s going to be frustrating to put two of the three primary means of player acquisition - drafting and free agency - through the RNG that is Heavyreign free agency. It’s also going to require additional cap balancing and forward thinking, which I’m not sure a ton of GMs will be interested in doing.
Druce: I’m looking forward to Lebron retiring, just so he’s gone. Rookie FA will be interesting if nothing else. As far as excitement, I really hope a new contender emerges.
Majic: I personally think that Rookie Free Agency, as we have it constructed, is going to be a fail. Overall I like the concept and think that its something that could work. I also think we currently have too many limitations on how its going to function. Mainly, its leaving way too much up to RNG, and as we all know with Heavyreign, less RNG in his software the better.
Ultimately I think its something fun for us to try for a few seasons and ultimately I think we start the move to 6.0 a little earlier than anticipated. I also predict that Odin will get a title before the end because his team is too damn good to not win one.
10) Last question, looking to 6.0 there is a lot to be excited about. New league always draws renewed interest and an expansion draft. The league is always looking to update and improve, so let's hear everyone's thoughts. What are 3 things you would like to see changed or updated in 6.0?
Skrouse:
1. Can't wait for the expansion draft. I hope we get some type of scouting/preseason/camp before the creation draft. I feel like that will really help balance out the teams from the get go. Going off of grades alone will allow guys who should've been first rounders to go much later.
2. Depending on how the Rookie acquisitions go I may want changes to the Wheel, Rookie FA or Lottery rules.
3. Would like to come up with a better grading system for articles/PODs, maybe standardize it somehow. Voting is cool and all but it's really inconsistent.
JHB:
1. I'd like to go back to the Wheel because it is obviously the best and the biggest equity concerns would be fixed if we had a full league.
2. I'd like us to be able to find a way to continue to have minor leagues if there somehow is a full league.
3. I'd like to have better builds for wing players.
Delap:
1. More extreme/unique player builds
2. Any rookie dispersal method that isn't unweighted lottery
3. A creation draft Zoom meet-up for the 1st round. Complete with hats and envelopes, etc.
Timpig: Go back to the Wheel - I like it in its current form, but if it must be modified to appease the Majic’s of the world, then I feel like there were some customized forms of it that were proposed that we could look into. Giving inactive GMs top picks or trading players for nothing just to make your team worse aren’t fun. This could change if Rookie FA turns out to be a resounding success in the same way that the wheel has.
New software - I saw enough out of 4.0 to realize I didn’t really care for that particular manipulation of the software, and while 5.0 has been much, much better, I feel like we know a little bit too much these days. It’d be fun to try a new software (FBB or otherwise) to allow people to develop their own theories about which attributes are strongest and try different team-building styles.
Minor Leagues - I don’t dislike the minors, but I’m not sure at this point that the reward is worth the work for Eric. It feels like these should be revamped moving forward, but I haven’t thought much about it until this question. Between the constant fines levied for people incorrectly setting depth charts due to promotions and demotions, specific contract rules that Eric has to manage because they aren’t software features, people trying to take advantage of said rules and then threatening to quit when they can’t, and so on, it just seems like a lot of work for a system that, as I recall, was intended to give more players the opportunity to remain in the league and not get deleted by the software.
Druce: No wheel, make wings great again, improved skill camp options
Majic:
1) Return to some form of weighted lotto/drafting system. I have explained my wheel thoughts on numerous occasions, so I won't go into it again here. I would prefer that we move to a system that in some way still creates some uncertainty around the draft. I wouldn't be against sticking with the wheel if we instituted some form of weighted odds to it. I like the uncertainty that a weighed option provides, even if it was tiered or blocked out in some fashion.
2) Little more creativity in the way players are built, especially the wing players. Mentioned this above, but I would love to have prospects that were more unique and varied in playing styles.
3) I am honestly not against new software. I think we have gotten to a point that we know almost everything we can determine about the current iteration and a new software would allow everyone to start from scratch. I know that BK’s league uses a different software and it seems to work well. Would love for us to explore that a bit.
Thanks to JHB, Druce, Delap, Tim and Skrouse for joining.
Without further adieu.......
1) 5.0 is winding down, let's start by discussing some of your favorite moments of 5.0. List your favorite 3 moments in 5.0. Could be specific players, transactions, teams, titles, really anything.
Skrouse:
3. eric becoming TMBSL Commissioner - This was clearly a highlight that I'm sure most, if not all GMs truly appreciate. eric has added a level of consistency never before seen in TMBSL, at least not in my time. And that is not meant as a knock against anyone but rather an achievement that deserves recognition and appreciation. Bravo Commish.
2. Acquiring Tracy McGrady from Logan for an expiring MLE deal for Livio Jean Charles. Easily my best move as a GM, without TMac I doubt I win any titles.
1. The 2025 title - My first title ever in any iteration of TMBSL. Was so nice I even told my wife about it, and she just loves to hear about my sim basketball league, let me tell ya.
JHB:
1. Title threepeat with Captain Jack/Jonas/God Shammgod core
2. Working out the trade to bring Kevin Garnett and Roy Hibbert to Atlanta
3. BK's title win
Delap: MARCUS TAYLOR WENT +5 AS A 27 YEAR OLD!!!
But seriously, my heart belongs to the gritty 2019 Mavericks, who won my only title and did so as a 5 seed. I've definitely had better teams, but they were my winners. Flags fly forever. I don't really have many concrete specific moments that I could point to, but I still consistently love being here and love most of y'all. I'm really glad we were able to pull together back in 2012/Contraction to keep it going. As a non-sim related moment, I loved the drama surrounding newguy/newishguy/jeezy and I'm so happy that we had the sleuthing necessary to out him and his attempted subterfuge. Screw that guy.
Timpig: I’ve been able to trade for some good draft picks during the wheel era - LeBron James, Oscar Robertson, Jabari Parker, Marvin Williams, Dwyane Wade, Michael Cooper. Drafting and developing is my favorite part of the league, and making the trades for all of those picks let me keep things going for 10+ seasons. Jabari was probably the most satisfying because he wasn’t supposed to turn into a stud.
The Power Hour we did back in the spring shortly after quarantine started was a lot of fun. As I recall, it was the day before my actual birthday and the first one started at like 2pm PT, so I was basically drunk for that entire weekend and attending the initial power hour and the rebroadcast a couple hours later was a nice way to keep things going when I couldn’t leave the house.
We’ve had three new GMs join who seem to actually want to stick around and succeed in Pointyegg, Kujo, and Troybarnes. Big fan of new GMs coming around and it’s good for the league. All three have had their growing pains, but I think are starting to get a handle on how things work. The league would be worse without them.
Druce: My first favorite moment would probably be Qyntel Woods being a beast. I remember back in the day reading his nbadraft.net profile and thinking he was going to be a stud, obviously that never worked out IRL, so I did what I could to make it so in the league and it worked out as I wanted. I enjoyed building prospects quite a bit, even if I didn’t really know wtf I was doing. As for 2 other moments, I had fun building my outside offense team around KD, to kinda go against the current meta was fun and challenging, although ultimately it didn’t matter because #lebron, as for number 3, hell I don’t know I guess the Deandre Ayton trade and everything that surrounded that was fun at the time.
Majic:
1) Both of my title teams were great but overall my second team was my favorite. I was able to win the title with AI as my point guard and finally got David Robinson a title.
2) I actually had some Free Agency success all throughout 5.0 and its something I am quite thankful for. Early on I was able to snag Isaac Bonga and then later on I was able to my towering front court of Dwight Howard and David Robinson. I also have enjoyed uncovering unknown guys and giving them a chance to play.
3) finally pulling off the AJ Guyton trade. Listen, alot of shit went down after the trade, but I had been trying to get him from Druce for several sim seasons and had put together some strong packages for him. Finally he agreed to the trade and I was able to get him in the fold The ensuing shitstorm was not exactly fun to deal with, an eventually lead to Druce quitting again, but overall I was very happy to finally have him on my team.
2) 4.0 to 5.0 resulted in a lot of changes for the league. In addition, we have seen a lot of things change over the course of 5.0’s run. Let's take a look back and break down some of the changes you all thought improved the league. List your top 3 changes in 5.0 in your opinion. Provide a little explanation too please.
Skrouse:
3. Reduction in tanking - I think this can be attributed directly to the wheel. Though controversial, I think the wheel can be noted as an overall good thing for the league given this one benefit alone.
2. Minor Leagues - This is a product of a less than full league but it was a great addition IMO. If only to give gms additional insight on players that would otherwise be stuck on a bench or in FA.
1. eric as commissioner - was no nice I'm listing it twice. As already stated, eric brought a level of consistency to TMBSL schedule that I don't ever recall seeing before. He also brought about new links, new features and new automation. Things we all take for granted every day I'm sure.
JHB:
1. All of the changes to the way in which upgrades work and moving away from the old TC/RC system we had back in 4.0. Gives more flexibility to the GM to upgrade players and I think it allows more different types of players to become viable.
2. Minor leagues and the early 5.0 G-league experiment - anything that gives more players a chance to log meaningful minutes so they can be identified and potentially become useful players is good...it also allows some more avenues for player acquisition and retention that you wouldn't have with only 15 roster spots available
3. The consistency and information provided with Eric as commissioner. It honestly makes the game more fun to play and much easier to fit into your schedule when you know exactly when things are going to happen and you don't pop in to find out that we're on day 3 of no movement or 20 days have surprisingly been simmed since you were last on (Odin certainly wasn't the only commish guilty of this, this is not a shot at him)
Delap: No offense to Logan, Odin, and/or Druce... but the biggest change has been the care of eric's human hands in guiding the league. It's been instrumental in keeping us afloat through the exodus of GMs, contraction, and our recent resurgence to more GMs. I'm a huge fan of the bells/whistles added to give us more tools to analyze our teams (easier stats, etc.), along with the shields/cups/belts. His pbp narrations are also absolutely fantastic. Another major improvement has been the Minor League system, which Odin created ("O" League, right?)... then was perfected post-contraction when we had enough space on real teams to develop 2nd/3rd team players. It's a great wrinkle. I'd rather have 29 active GMs... but if you can't have that, 20 + Minor teams is pretty rad.
Timpig: The Wheel - No tanking, even distribution of draft capital, and multiple new GMs brought to the league. “BuT iT’s NoT fAiR iF yOu GeT 1.1 iN tHe LeBrOn DrAfT”. Remember that Fred VanVleet and Malik Beasley were traded for a pick that could’ve been Karl Malone and created a dominant frontcourt duo alongside Patrick Ewing for over a decade. If that isn’t enough for you, also remember that Olden Polynice was traded for the rights to LeBron James. Or you can instead complain that Alex English wasn’t worthy of a #1 pick without acknowledging that the player who was picked after him has the best field goal % of any wing in 5.0 history and is a top 10 most efficient wing in league history by pts/tsa with positional flexibility and no significant weaknesses. Or that the point guard taken three selections after him is a surefire Hall of Famer, former league MVP, top-two scorer in the league five times, and has made four all-league first teams and been named first team all-defense five times. Or, you know, we can have Kn getting a top-3 pick for 25 consecutive seasons.
Contraction/Expansion - Not sure if it counts, but the ability to expand and contract has kept the league alive. Both 4.0 and early 5.0 allowed for tons of bitching about how CPU teams were run - can they make trades, can they make free agency bids, should they accept re-signings, should their players be upgraded, should we auto-draft for them or skip them, etc. We (eric) removed all of those opportunities for whining and created a system that allowed 5.0 to continue when we saw a mass exodus of GMs early on.
New Positional Caps - Just limiting shot blocking has completely changed the dynamic of the league and made the old software feel new again. Others were put in place to prevent point guard dominance, but those mostly could’ve been avoided through player builds. Other things that deserve an honorable mention include scouting of rookies and play-by-play. We need more of those.
Druce: I really like the draft happening during the season, but I would sacrifice that to get rid of the wheel. I think scouting is great, love it. Profiles are one thing, but getting actual ratings is fantastic. The biggest change has to be in big scoring. Now the league mirrors real life more and that’s fantastic. The research eric has done and provided to the league is a fantastic change as well. I think the league is in a really good spot as far as the rules and stuff are concerned.
Majic:
1) The best change overall has been eric taking over as commissioner. The consistency that eric has provided has given the league much needed stability in a time when it looked like we might be done completely. Everything runs on time, everything runs smoothly and ultimately we all know exactly when league events will take place. In addition, eric has added so much automation and increased use of statistics for everyone to utilize. Even though there are some things I may not like, he has been exactly what the league needed.
2) Contraction / Expansion - I love that we finally were able to come up with a solution that benefited all of the GM’s that were still participating. 4.0 drug on in the last 10+ seasons with half the league not paying attention or caring what was happening. Having the ability to just cut out all unnecessary teams has been awesome and a huge improvement. In addition, I think the expansion process is fair for both the new GM and existing teams. Overall its been awesome to operate as a league with only 12-17 teams.
3) The changes we made to how a player can be upgraded and how you can apply those upgrades. Looking back, the 4.0 model was pretty stupid as it compltely limited the affect a GM could have on upgrading a player. Additionally, the caps we instituted for upgrades has had a huge effect in creating a balanced league. 4.0 bigs were all the same and in 5.0 we have a lot of diversity. It has been awesome to see different styles of teams winning the title.
3) On the flip side, not everything has been for the better, at least some people believe. Looking back to 4.0, or even early 5.0, what are 3 things that changed for worse, in your opinion? As with the last question, provide a little explanation.
Skrouse: I don't have enough memory from the past iterations to really recall what was great which is now worse, so only 1 answer from me here.
1. GM participation - It's been a shame to lose so many good GMs from TMBSL's past. I hope that with 6.0 coming around we get more buy in. And hopefully all of the improvements to the league attract others to stick around.
JHB:
1. I'd like a full roster of GMs like we had in early 4.0. Bringing back some old GMs would be nice - Pete, Fason, Heebs, Ian, Soup. Those guys (outside of Ian who is purely for entertainment value) would make the competition at the top end of the league more difficult for sure.
2. I wish we'd do a bit better job building a more complete league-wide roster of shooting guards and small forwards with actual skills. Stop starting outside grades so low and expecting them to grow. I'm tired of B+ C C C+ C dudes that end up being high-quality players but get paid like bums. It's been a little better lately but that was a big issue for awhile.
3. Tim has gotten more obnoxious now that he's won a bunch of titles
Delap: We've lost a ton of good GMs. There are 10-12 guys out there that could be major additions to the league... many of whom would push me down to mediocre-tier GM rankings, but I want them back anyway. I'm also a bit down on some of the player creation we've seen under eric. For all of his plaudits that he deserves (see above), the players are a bit... robotic. I'd like to see more creativity in their builds to have less cookie-cutter type players. I've tried to be more creative in write-ups, but I don't know how much that has impacted eric's programming. I think he builds too many guys the same and just lets TC do its thing... but I'd like to see some weird builds out there to see what happens a bit more often. Finally, Mafia was way better in 4.0.
Timpig: Upgrades - I like the upgrade system in 5.0 of +25/30 anywhere you want to assign it better than what we had in 4.0 where a player could only receive one +5 skill camp in one attribute per season. I’m not a huge fan of the expanded upgrades we implemented a few seasons back, however. With +30 and a +10 skill camp, it seems that most players can become viable in the league. I like relying on potential and software randomness more heavily.
Ambiguous Positions - I wasn’t sure of a better way to title this, but the combo guard/forward system we tried out in early 5.0 didn’t turn out so great. I understand the sentiment and using those positional assignments to restrict abuse of the software, but tracking it was a disaster and we could’ve avoided tons of complaining by just not giving point guards unreasonable builds.
Loss of GMs - We lost some stalwart GMs early on in guys like Fason, Heebs, Pete, and, to a lesser extent, IanBoyd and Ankly. Eric transitioning from GM to commissioner also lost us a good and active GM. I miss having those guys around as all were good and active GMs with a heavy Shout presence.
Druce: My biggest gripe is the wheel because I don’t think it’s good for competitive balance. I don’t particularly see any reason that a team that is already a top tier team should get handed early draft picks. It makes building a team much easier because you get an influx of top tier cheap talent every couple of years without having to sacrifice an already established player. I think it makes it easier to stay good, and harder to come up from the top because you get limited shots to hit on top picks. I think expansion needs to be tweaked, either less protection slots, or not allowing them to be traded. Not sure I have a 3rd.
Majic:
1) Loss of long tenured GM’s. There have been a few GM’s that I wish we still had around, and honestly am still surprised they decided to call it quits. Fason, Heebs, Pete, Ian, all had a solid place in sim league history, so having any of them back would be a positive.
2) It's been mentioned above but I will state it as well, I have not particularly liked the way that eric creates prospects. To steal Delaps line, it all seems a bit too robotic and overall there seems to be very little variation in the players. Sure, everyone has a different “strength” but beyond that it seems like players ultimately end up looking the same. The way he build them leaves alot up to chance and RNG with how they will progress through TC. I would personally like a little more variation in how they are built that would lead to more dynamic players across the league.
3) This connects with #2, but the complete lack of depth across the league at the wing position. For probably the last 5-10 offseasons there has not been any SF’s that have hit FA that were max worth, or near it. It seems that any wing worth a shit has offered to resign almost every single offseason. I know JHB mentioned this as well, I think alot goes back to the original builds of the players. I would like to see a more consistent output of wing players through the end of 5.0 and into 6.0.
4) Let's do a little self reflection. Give us a short breakdown of your best move in 5.0 history and why.
Skrouse: As mentioned, the trade I pulled off for T-Mac had by far the greatest impact and led to 3 titles. I only had to give up an expiring, aging vet. Outside of that, I'm not sure I've done much to be noteworthy. I've pieced together good teams consistently but to quote arguably the greatest silverscreen racer of all time "If you're not first, you're last."
JHB: Best move is obviously my very fair trade for Kevin Garnett and Roy Hibbert. Its won me two titles so far.
Delap: Drafting and extending Cam Reddish 1.22 in the Creation Draft. Easy. Retired as the all-time WS leader and a 19 year career in one city. I never did enough for him to win, but he was still loyal to me. Probably the best player to never win a title.
Timpig: This one seems like an easy choice for me - trading Olden Polynice for the rights to LeBron James. What made it even better is that I made the trade with someone who is consistently in the rotation for my most hated GM. If I had to pick another, trading an aging Dave Lattin for the rights to Oscar Robertson (even though at the time I thought it’d be Jerry West) or trading Greg Oden who appeared to be regressing at a young age for the 1.3 that eventually turned into Jabari Parker also rank very high up there. All three players were crucial to my dynasty in the 2030s.
Druce: Move that come to mind include swapping Bryant Reeves for Jaylen Brown, the KD trade, taking Ennis in the expansion draft, trading Austin Carr. Those moves helped me build consistent conference championship/finals losing teams, which is the pinnacle of my sim league experience. It doesn’t get any better than that!!!!
Majic: Creating an unstoppable front court that consisted of David Robinson, Dwight Howard and Emeka Okefor and then sticking with them until we finally broke through with a title. This was a mix of FA luck along with some long term planning and drafting. I felt this team should have won a title alot earlier than it did, but I made the decision to stick with the core even when I had no PG option other than AI. Ultimately it led to a title and it was the most enjoyable title I have won yet.
I know I only asked for 1, but a very close second was the decision to trade FVV and Beasley for the haul I got from the Magic. Even though I recently lost Bynum in FA, it has netted me a stud SG and a long term answer at SF.
5) With good sometimes comes bad, what was your worst move of 5.0? What made it so bad?
Skrouse: Overpaying for Malik Beasley and FVV. I think the FVV piece of that deal has worked out OK, but Beasley has not developed offensively like I had hoped. Looking back, I should not have come in with such a strong initial offer. Had I gone with Austin Carr and Bynum for the pair, maybe that was enough. Even if I ended up needing to throw in a 1.8 instead of a 1.2 it would have had a great impact. I think tweaking the deal a little to make it more even, makes that deal better for the Magic in both the short and long term. But overall the value of that trade was diminished on my end by repeated injuries to Smits and Carr. So even if I made a great deal, I can't win without 2 of my best guys unless I have a really deep bench.
JHB: Trading the LeBron pick for Olden Polynice is probably my worst move. In fairness, drafting LeBron only guarantees you 4 years with him and had I drafted him he may have left after the rookie deal with some different sim luck so three titles was still worth it. But if I have to pick one that's the worst. Close second would be getting cute with my cap space and losing Elvis Delle Donne after Year 1 of the reboot.
Delap: 2: trading 3.22 to eric (where he picked HOFer Stan Haynes)... and my fateful decision to +5 shot blocking for F* Al Harrington, thereby locking him into PF. Had I left him as SF eligible I could've paired him and Reddish together for 12 years on the wing and likely would've won a title. I still hadn't fully appreciated the shift in 5.0 to understand that wings are way harder to find than decent bigs. Still hurts.
Timpig: I’ve pointed to trading the rights to Qyntel Woods a few times. For those who missed it, very early on in 5.0 I was very close to having max cap space - within about $1.5 million - and adding the 21st pick (I think that was it) would’ve prevented me from doing so, so I sold it to andrewluck for 1,000 bucks. I had my eye on Woods and was hopeful he’d slip another few picks so I could nab him at 2.1, but Andy grabbed him and he turned into a Hall of Famer.
If I had to pick another, early in 5.0 Antawn Jamison left me in free agency despite receiving a full max coming off of his rookie contract. I had a nice little stew going but that created a huge hole in my lineup, which I panicked and tried to fill my trading some future assets for an aging Clarence Withers, which didn’t turn out well.
Druce: There are no bad moves, only learning experiences.
Majic: My decision to not blow up my last title team, and ultimately delaying a rebuild. I won that title with the towering trio and when things started to reach the end, I incorrectly held on too long. I eventually lost Howard and then traded Okafor, but by then the value was too low. I also, for some odd reason, decided to never trade David Robinson and never capitalized on his insane value. Ultimately this cost me several seasons where my team wasted away with nothing to play for. And with wheel that's never a good thing. I was finally able to hit on some draft picks and trade for Cartwright to get things back to the winning ways, but had I blown up my team shortly after the title, I could have done it a little bit quicker.
6) Let's go a little deeper and discuss some individual players. I think it's fairly known who the 2 best players in 5.0 history are, but let's get everyone's opinion. List your top 5 players in 5.0 history and a little explanation as to why you made your choice.
Skrouse:
5. Giannis Antetokounmpo - Great from the on set, great at scoring while paired with a great scorer and great at rebounding while paired with a great rebounder. Giannis is the 2nd best SF of all time only due to the "Chosen One".
4. Bill Russell - The best defensive player in TMBSL history. The only reason he makes the list is because he was a markedly better defender than pretty much anyone else. He also was an amazing rebounder. Had he and Wilt switch spots, he would have 3+ rings and Wilt may be sitting with 0 instead.
3. Kyrie Irving - Clearly the best scoring PG (that played a full career - See Brain Winter), the problem I have is despite being on good teams, he had a hard time winning. And that just drops him in the rankings
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - I think KAJ was great at every facet a big man can be, I guess he could have passed better but that's about it. I don't think any other big can make that claim. He was a great scorer, rebounder, defender, took care of the ball, scored with efficiency, I mean what more could you want? Like Kyrie, he did only have 1 title, which would be a knock on him, however I don't feel like he ever had a great supporting cast, which was not the case with Irving.
1. LeBron James - Easily the #1 here, he's great at everything and has played for ever. He's the greatest SF by a decent margin given who #5 is on this list. And if 5.0 has taught us (or at least me) one thing it is that the wing positions are far less deep when it comes to the top end of the talent pool. He's the GOAT IMO.
JHB:
1. LeBron James - I think Kareem is the better player overall but LeBron gets #1 for positional scarcity. The delta between him and other elite wings is much larger than Kareem and other elite bigs. Has the hardware to back it up.
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - All-around stud, shame that people seemingly were incapable of building squads around him.
3. Kyrie Irving - I think he's clearly the best outside of LeBron and Kareem and the win shares back that up.
4. Bill Russell - I'm putting him here because of his elite defense and because had he had any help his entire career his win share numbers would probably reflect how truly elite he was.
5. Kawhi Leonard - Fuck what the win shares say, he was a cheat code with his defense on the wings and I think he was a far more impactful player than any metric can reflect.
Delap:
1. LeBron James - no explanation needed. Best player ever. Created very OP... but also got the right TC luck to make him virtually invincible (except when exposed to the one substance that makes him mortal, KryptoNatt)
2. Kyrie Irving - all-time WS leader (for now), owns the Top 10 of individual seasons. All-time scoring leader (for now). Betrayed me before I could betray him.
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - like Kyrie he got 1 title. Dominated for his short career, was never really surrounded with enough talent later in his career.
4. Bill Russell - Best defender we've ever seen... but really never had a chance to play with great players. Darn shame.
5. (tie) Magic Johnson/Oscar Robertson - I'm cheating because I can't pick between them. I'd maybe give Magic the tiiiiiinnnnnyyyyy edge because of his defensive prowess.
Timpig:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Most efficient scorer in league history, elite rebounder, elite defender, no turnover issues. Entered the league completely flawless and, if he entered at 18 like LeBron or Kyrie, would probably be the all-time leader in points, rebounds, and blocks.
LeBron James - The most efficient wing the league has seen and one of the top rebounders at the position. Very good defender as well. Surprisingly didn’t have major turnover issues for much of his career when his build indicated it may have been a problem.
Yao Ming - The second most efficient scorer we’ve seen who also put up almost 12 rebounds and just one turnover per 36 for his career. Incredibly efficient, a defensive stalwart, no turnover problems. Another flawless player, but just a touch below Kareem.
Giannis Antetokounmpo - Hyper-efficient, though not at LeBron’s level in that regard. About equal as a defender, as he was able to average 2.4 bleals per 36 playing small forward exclusively, while LeBron is at 2.5 with a significant chunk of his career spent at power forward. Giannis was also a better rebounder (9.6 per 36 almost exclusively at SF to LeBron’s 9.9 split between two positions) and turned it over way less (1.2 per 36 to 2.0 for LeBron).
Brain Winter - A better scorer than Kyrie and a better defender than Magic. A worse rebounder than both, but still very good for the position. Turnovers were also as much of a non-issue for the Rockets great as they were/are for Kyrie and Magic. The fifth spot was really tough and could’ve gone a number of ways depending on what you value.
Druce: I’m going to go with the top 5 during my time in the league and not during my absence. Lebron, Yao, Giannis, Woods, Jay Williams. The explanation is that they’re all friggin studs.
Majic:
1) Lebron James - this is pretty self explanatory. He has helped lead the Bulls to 7 title, and in a league that is devoid of SF depth, he has absolutely dominated.
2) Kareem Abdul-Jabar - Most efficient scorer in league history, dominant rebounder, elite defensive presence and not a single flaw in his game.
3) Yao Ming - right behind Kareem in terms of efficiency, great rebounding and again, no flaws. Helped lead a dynasty and racked up several championships.
4) Kyrie Irving - best PG we have had in 5.0 and I doubt anyone comes close. Absolutely dominant scoring PG and really had no flaws in his game. He seemed to bounce around a bit, mostly due to his aptitude to explore all FA options.
5) David Robinson - this is a bit of a homer pick, but I dont' care. Robinson was an truly dominant player his entire run in 5.0. He was an elite scorer, strong rebounder and played elite defense. Sure, his TO’s were a bit higher than some might like, but given the frequency he had the ball he made up for in every other way.
7) Create your best all time starting 5…. Go!
Skrouse:
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PF: Simisola Shittu
SF: LeBron James
SG: Tracy McGrady
PG: Brain Winter
JHB:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
LeBron James
Kawhi Leonard
Magic Johnson
You're not scoring on this group and you also have a group of 4 elite rebounders for their positions that would absolutely lock down the boards. This group might approach a 60% rebound rate. Kawhi and Bill aren't great scorers but I think the trio of Kareem, LeBron, and Magic in an inside offense would give plenty of scoring punch. I considered Kyrie at PG and Garnett at PF but I decided Magic would fit better with the offensive aesthetic and that I wanted more defense and rebounding out of the 4 instead of a bit more offensive juice.
Delap: Kyrie, Capt. Jack, LBJ, Kareem, Russell. Plenty of scoring from Kyrie, LBJ, and Kareem. Defense is elite, too.
Timpig:
Do I have to stick to software positions? If not...
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PF - Yao Ming
SF - LeBron James
SG - Gary Bossert
PG - Brain Winter
If so…
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PF - Kevin Garnett
SF - LeBron James
SG - Gary Bossert
PG - Brain Winter
Druce:
Same as above:
PG: Jay
SG: Woods
SF: Giannis
PF: Lebron
C: Yao
Majic:
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PF - David Robinson
SF - Lebron James
SG - Tracy McGrady
PG - Kyrie Irving
Every single player on this list can score, you have elite defense all across the board and your team will dominate the rebounding number.
8) Throughout 5.0 there have been a number of guys that didnt get the recognition they deserve. Give us your top 2 most under-appreciated players in 5.0 history.
Skrouse: Michael Jordan, Vince Carter - Neither made the HOF for some reason. MJ was dealing with a GM that failed to invest in his talent and VC was playing with 2 other greats while still holding his own, especially on the scoring front. I think both deserved more respect.
JHB: This is tough. I would go out on a limb and say #1 should be any defensive wing in the last 20 seasons, especially those that can also give you some offense. Kawhi didn't fall into this category because his wing defense was super-elite, but the main ones I'm thinking of here are the James Worthy types that have managed to play on sub-max contracts their entire career while giving efficient offense (with low volume) and providing a block per game on defense. Alex English is another (poor rebounding hurts his prospects). I wouldn't include guys like Adrian Dantley and Bradley Beal here because they've been paid like elite guys their whole career. I also think the next group of defensive wings of the MKG variety have also been way undervalued. They always seem to pop up on championship-caliber teams. Case in point: Stacey Augmon who should be a HOFer (seriously though he got 80% of his vote). Do the right thing veteran's committee.
I would also like to give a shout out to Vlade Divac and Juwan Howard who I think (outside of Augmon) are the two most tragic omissions from the Hall of Fame and are very deserving.
Delap: My mind immediately goes to 2 players that played together IRL and were together early in their sim career: Tim Duncan and David Robinson... especially David Robinson. They got bounced around teams, locations, etc. a ton and never really got the plaudits either of them deserved. Duncan never topped out as an elite defender, but both of them were crazy efficient scorers and should've been praised more.
Timpig: Michael Jordan - Not in the Hall of Fame and looked down upon because he wasn’t the GOAT, which feels like it’s near impossible for a shooting guard to be in this software. In today’s TMBSL, he’d be a bonafide stud. High efficiency on good volume, excellent defender, no turnover issues. Rebounding wasn’t great, but not a liability either. Imagine if he’d actually received all of his upgrades or a skill camp.
Nick King - Another early TMBSL 5.0 guy, King averaged 21.3 points and 9.4 rebounds with 2 bleals and just 1 turnover per 36 with a career 1.16 pts/tsa. Elite across the board for a guy who could play small forward or shooting guard. Only played 10 seasons and the first few he was a rotational piece, which hampered his Hall of Fame resume.
Druce: I think KD was underappreciated, as he didn’t make HOF. Had he not been stuck in Charlotte he’d have had explosive numbers. Should be in the hall. It also took a long time for Clint Capela to get minutes and prove his worth as a defensive stalwart. I didn’t hold onto him like an idiot, but he’s an HOF worthy defensive stud.
Majic: David Robinson and Michael Jordan. I understand Robinson is a HOF’er but I still think he is overlooked a bit when discussing the best bigs of 5.0. I listed him in my top 5 players of 50 history, so that shows how highly I think of him.
I always felt that Jordan was the victim of his team and GM. Looking back I wonder what Jordan could have done on a team that was built around him and had a GM that was focused. He was an elite scorer, played elite defense and chipped in with solid rebounding numbers for a SG. Again, if the circumstances were different I think MJ could easily have won a couple titles.
9) What is your prediction for the ending of 5.0, will Rookie FA be a success? Explain your thoughts.
Skrouse: Rookie FA will be a success but removal of draft picks as a trade commodity will hurt the league more than Rookie FA helps it. And will thus lead us back to the draft in some format. I think we end up back on the wheel but one customized for TMBSL.
JHB: I predict that Odin will get his first title among a sea of additional Bulls, Hawks, and Globes titles. I also think that Druce will pull off his first title this time as well. I think rookie FA will be a success in the eyes of some and not in the eyes of others, especially once people see some FA luck tilt towards the folks who are already winning.
Delap: I think it will be a "success" as much as Wheel once guys adapt. I anticipate we'll see some GMs MAX rookies that definitely don't deserve it. Looking at players in the 1st 4 years, I'd say each class only has 2-3 that might deserve $9m annually... but I predict we'll see 5-7 get signed each time. It is going to be a real burden for some teams that get spend-happy early in Rookie FA years.
Timpig: I don’t have high hopes for Rookie Free Agency, but mostly because I think that it’s going to be frustrating to put two of the three primary means of player acquisition - drafting and free agency - through the RNG that is Heavyreign free agency. It’s also going to require additional cap balancing and forward thinking, which I’m not sure a ton of GMs will be interested in doing.
Druce: I’m looking forward to Lebron retiring, just so he’s gone. Rookie FA will be interesting if nothing else. As far as excitement, I really hope a new contender emerges.
Majic: I personally think that Rookie Free Agency, as we have it constructed, is going to be a fail. Overall I like the concept and think that its something that could work. I also think we currently have too many limitations on how its going to function. Mainly, its leaving way too much up to RNG, and as we all know with Heavyreign, less RNG in his software the better.
Ultimately I think its something fun for us to try for a few seasons and ultimately I think we start the move to 6.0 a little earlier than anticipated. I also predict that Odin will get a title before the end because his team is too damn good to not win one.
10) Last question, looking to 6.0 there is a lot to be excited about. New league always draws renewed interest and an expansion draft. The league is always looking to update and improve, so let's hear everyone's thoughts. What are 3 things you would like to see changed or updated in 6.0?
Skrouse:
1. Can't wait for the expansion draft. I hope we get some type of scouting/preseason/camp before the creation draft. I feel like that will really help balance out the teams from the get go. Going off of grades alone will allow guys who should've been first rounders to go much later.
2. Depending on how the Rookie acquisitions go I may want changes to the Wheel, Rookie FA or Lottery rules.
3. Would like to come up with a better grading system for articles/PODs, maybe standardize it somehow. Voting is cool and all but it's really inconsistent.
JHB:
1. I'd like to go back to the Wheel because it is obviously the best and the biggest equity concerns would be fixed if we had a full league.
2. I'd like us to be able to find a way to continue to have minor leagues if there somehow is a full league.
3. I'd like to have better builds for wing players.
Delap:
1. More extreme/unique player builds
2. Any rookie dispersal method that isn't unweighted lottery
3. A creation draft Zoom meet-up for the 1st round. Complete with hats and envelopes, etc.
Timpig: Go back to the Wheel - I like it in its current form, but if it must be modified to appease the Majic’s of the world, then I feel like there were some customized forms of it that were proposed that we could look into. Giving inactive GMs top picks or trading players for nothing just to make your team worse aren’t fun. This could change if Rookie FA turns out to be a resounding success in the same way that the wheel has.
New software - I saw enough out of 4.0 to realize I didn’t really care for that particular manipulation of the software, and while 5.0 has been much, much better, I feel like we know a little bit too much these days. It’d be fun to try a new software (FBB or otherwise) to allow people to develop their own theories about which attributes are strongest and try different team-building styles.
Minor Leagues - I don’t dislike the minors, but I’m not sure at this point that the reward is worth the work for Eric. It feels like these should be revamped moving forward, but I haven’t thought much about it until this question. Between the constant fines levied for people incorrectly setting depth charts due to promotions and demotions, specific contract rules that Eric has to manage because they aren’t software features, people trying to take advantage of said rules and then threatening to quit when they can’t, and so on, it just seems like a lot of work for a system that, as I recall, was intended to give more players the opportunity to remain in the league and not get deleted by the software.
Druce: No wheel, make wings great again, improved skill camp options
Majic:
1) Return to some form of weighted lotto/drafting system. I have explained my wheel thoughts on numerous occasions, so I won't go into it again here. I would prefer that we move to a system that in some way still creates some uncertainty around the draft. I wouldn't be against sticking with the wheel if we instituted some form of weighted odds to it. I like the uncertainty that a weighed option provides, even if it was tiered or blocked out in some fashion.
2) Little more creativity in the way players are built, especially the wing players. Mentioned this above, but I would love to have prospects that were more unique and varied in playing styles.
3) I am honestly not against new software. I think we have gotten to a point that we know almost everything we can determine about the current iteration and a new software would allow everyone to start from scratch. I know that BK’s league uses a different software and it seems to work well. Would love for us to explore that a bit.
