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Post by Logan on Aug 18, 2020 2:00:36 GMT
there is a system being worked on. so i'm just trying to get a discussion started on it.
what would you like to see out of it?
what are the most important things to you in fa?
etc, etc, etc
GO!
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Post by TimPig on Aug 18, 2020 2:32:06 GMT
The main thing I’d want to see is at least a small amount of randomness that creates the occasional head scratching signing. Not guys turning down maxes for mins, but you get the idea.
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Post by Logan on Aug 18, 2020 2:45:58 GMT
The main thing I’d want to see is at least a small amount of randomness that creates the occasional head scratching signing. Not guys turning down maxes for mins, but you get the idea. i'm aiming to accomplish just that by allowing greed/play for winner/loyalty to play a larger factor |
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Post by TimPig on Aug 18, 2020 3:06:08 GMT
The main thing I’d want to see is at least a small amount of randomness that creates the occasional head scratching signing. Not guys turning down maxes for mins, but you get the idea. i'm aiming to accomplish just that by allowing greed/play for winner/loyalty to play a larger factor This just made me think of something... What about the ability to increase the weight of the “Play for Winner” attribute more greatly as a player ages? The idea essentially being that we could reflect an aging veteran chasing one more ring late in their career. |
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Post by jhb on Aug 18, 2020 3:12:33 GMT
Cue BK screeching about a mechanism to help winning teams that don’t need help
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Post by Logan on Aug 18, 2020 3:27:05 GMT
i'm aiming to accomplish just that by allowing greed/play for winner/loyalty to play a larger factor This just made me think of something... What about the ability to increase the weight of the “Play for Winner” attribute more greatly as a player ages? The idea essentially being that we could reflect an aging veteran chasing one more ring late in their career. this is brilliant |
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Post by Logan on Aug 18, 2020 3:36:25 GMT
something i would really like to see are decreasing contracts. i think it can be done while still allow first year money to be the most important thing but then have total money be a little more important than it is now
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Aug 18, 2020 12:47:47 GMT
1. Actually make the greed/play for winner/loyalty matter
2. Declining contracts
3. I would prefer to see total contract money play a larger role than 1st year money... seems more realistic that way.
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Post by Logan on Aug 18, 2020 13:02:58 GMT
1. Actually make the greed/play for winner/loyalty matter 2. Declining contracts 3. I would prefer to see total contract money play a larger role than 1st year money... seems more realistic that way. eric has said he wants first year money to remain the most important but i think we can easily make total money much more relevant than it is now |
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Post by Majic on Aug 18, 2020 13:47:25 GMT
All of the changes mentioned above could be an improvement.
One item I have long talked about is the ability to have some idea of where the market is at for contracts. Something that allows teams the ability to have some idea of what the player is being offered. This would help mitigate some of the over-signings we see.
IRL sports has a natural ability to do this with agents, so maybe something along the lines of an "Agent" for a player shares with the market where the contract offers are coming in at. Not specific numbers but something like "he is getting offer more than 6 million on a long term contract"
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Post by Logan on Aug 18, 2020 14:21:42 GMT
All of the changes mentioned above could be an improvement. One item I have long talked about is the ability to have some idea of where the market is at for contracts. Something that allows teams the ability to have some idea of what the player is being offered. This would help mitigate some of the over-signings we see. IRL sports has a natural ability to do this with agents, so maybe something along the lines of an "Agent" for a player shares with the market where the contract offers are coming in at. Not specific numbers but something like "he is getting offer more than 6 million on a long term contract" could be interesting if we entered our own bids into the spreadsheet and could see updates and stuff, etc. idk, the idea is not ironed out at all but i could see a way to do it. |
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Post by Majic on Aug 18, 2020 14:30:34 GMT
All of the changes mentioned above could be an improvement. One item I have long talked about is the ability to have some idea of where the market is at for contracts. Something that allows teams the ability to have some idea of what the player is being offered. This would help mitigate some of the over-signings we see. IRL sports has a natural ability to do this with agents, so maybe something along the lines of an "Agent" for a player shares with the market where the contract offers are coming in at. Not specific numbers but something like "he is getting offer more than 6 million on a long term contract" could be interesting if we entered our own bids into the spreadsheet and could see updates and stuff, etc. idk, the idea is not ironed out at all but i could see a way to do it. It wouldnt have to be exact numbers, I would actually argue that its not exact as thats too much free information. Rather, somehow creating a way that a GM can understand the value of players. Over time a GM can learn how to better manage, but even experienced GM's often times overestimate the market and overbid. On the flip side, this could also help drive up the cost of players that deserve more money. If GM's know that a player has multiple offers, they might decide to come in with a strong bid to try and sign the player. Overpays will always happen, and happen in the IRL NBA (Kevin Love max by the cavs after LBJ left again). But I think throughout 5.0 we have seen the market for players fluctuate quite a bit and its extremely difficult to judge value at times. This could also help mitigate the need for Amnesties, which I personally think should cost ALOT more. But thats a different topic. |
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Post by Logan on Aug 18, 2020 14:35:21 GMT
could be interesting if we entered our own bids into the spreadsheet and could see updates and stuff, etc. idk, the idea is not ironed out at all but i could see a way to do it. It wouldnt have to be exact numbers, I would actually argue that its not exact as thats too much free information. Rather, somehow creating a way that a GM can understand the value of players. Over time a GM can learn how to better manage, but even experienced GM's often times overestimate the market and overbid. On the flip side, this could also help drive up the cost of players that deserve more money. If GM's know that a player has multiple offers, they might decide to come in with a strong bid to try and sign the player. Overpays will always happen, and happen in the IRL NBA (Kevin Love max by the cavs after LBJ left again). But I think throughout 5.0 we have seen the market for players fluctuate quite a bit and its extremely difficult to judge value at times. This could also help mitigate the need for Amnesties, which I personally think should cost ALOT more. But thats a different topic. one really easy way to do something would be showing how many bids a player has reveived |
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Post by jhb on Aug 18, 2020 14:42:11 GMT
Yes but every time you give that information back to GMs it's going to change their behavior and make them want to adapt their bids so then you just get a repeating feedback loop
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Post by Majic on Aug 18, 2020 14:55:16 GMT
Yes but every time you give that information back to GMs it's going to change their behavior and make them want to adapt their bids so then you just get a repeating feedback loop I agree that this is one of the biggest issues with creating a system like this. Without some form of automation it creates more work for the Commish. Maybe there could be a macro that once bids are entered, it will aggregate a number for everyone to see. We create 2 "deadlines" that GM's have to enter the bids in by so that it populates. |
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Post by jhb on Aug 18, 2020 15:02:14 GMT
Yes but every time you give that information back to GMs it's going to change their behavior and make them want to adapt their bids so then you just get a repeating feedback loop I agree that this is one of the biggest issues with creating a system like this. Without some form of automation it creates more work for the Commish. Maybe there could be a macro that once bids are entered, it will aggregate a number for everyone to see. We create 2 "deadlines" that GM's have to enter the bids in by so that it populates. What kind of number? Average starting salary offered? So then what I'm going to do in that system is not bid competitively on anyone that I like the first time through to make people comfortable with offers I can then easily beat. |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Aug 18, 2020 15:59:38 GMT
I don't want that information. GMs should learn how to bid properly. Sorry you overpaid.
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Post by Logan on Aug 18, 2020 16:11:46 GMT
I don't want that information. GMs should learn how to bid properly. Sorry you overpaid. how do you feel about seeing the number of bids? |
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Post by TimPig on Aug 18, 2020 16:15:18 GMT
I don't want that information. GMs should learn how to bid properly. Sorry you overpaid. how do you feel about seeing the number of bids? I'm with Delap, and I'm not sure how much seeing the number of bids helps. If we're displaying the total number of bids, you can count on me sending out 15 bids every single bid period (or whatever the max was if this system were to alter it) to throw other GMs off, which would inevitably annoy the hell out of the commissioner, unless this was some trustworthy automated system. |
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Post by eric on Aug 18, 2020 17:36:44 GMT
fwiw if i don't have to actually enter bids i don't care how many bids you people enter or how many deadlines there are
so a system where gms would enter their stuff in the sheet and the sheet figures it out without me doing anything seems like a high priority if we do want to expand the system the way people are talking
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Post by jhb on Aug 18, 2020 18:02:53 GMT
btw this isn't nearly as easy as everyone seems to think it is
We've got to have tools to calculate what max offers are, work around cap space, make exceptions still work without soft cap, etc. and that's before even getting into weighting out how we want all of the different attributes (starting money, total money, player traits, etc.) affect the probability of a signing
We'll have to figure out a way to order player signings since we don't have the player rating factor outside the software
This is a bitch, you people do not appreciate what a machine eric is
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Post by TimPig on Aug 18, 2020 18:08:42 GMT
btw this isn't nearly as easy as everyone seems to think it is We've got to have tools to calculate what max offers are, work around cap space, make exceptions still work without soft cap, etc. and that's before even getting into weighting out how we want all of the different attributes (starting money, total money, player traits, etc.) affect the probability of a signing We'll have to figure out a way to order player signings since we don't have the player rating factor outside the software This is a bitch, you people do not appreciate what a machine eric is Literally no one suggested it was going to be easy. We were asked for suggestions and some of us provided them. |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Aug 18, 2020 18:13:18 GMT
Oh, it's gonna be super complex.
We should ask nate silver to make it now that his election model is done. Also, I think he would be a fun GM.
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Post by Druce on Aug 18, 2020 18:16:46 GMT
based on the amount of work this apparently is, it is even necessary?
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Post by TimPig on Aug 18, 2020 18:28:28 GMT
based on the amount of work this apparently is, it is even necessary? Odin suggested he was interested in giving it a go and apparently recruited JHB to help out. I'm fine with software free agency as it is, but if other people want to spend time trying to figure out a superior alternative, I won't stop them  |
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Post by Logan on Aug 18, 2020 19:35:54 GMT
btw this isn't nearly as easy as everyone seems to think it is We've got to have tools to calculate what max offers are, work around cap space, make exceptions still work without soft cap, etc. and that's before even getting into weighting out how we want all of the different attributes (starting money, total money, player traits, etc.) affect the probability of a signing We'll have to figure out a way to order player signings since we don't have the player rating factor outside the software This is a bitch, you people do not appreciate what a machine eric is again, im still fine paying someone from fiverr, etc to do it for us |
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Post by jhb on Aug 18, 2020 20:09:29 GMT
I'd be down with that and working with an actual programmer to workshop what we need
I can handle all of the basics that the sheet would need but honestly I'm not even sure how to approach getting to the part where we'd have to come up with a methodology outside of the software to determine what order the signings would occur in each day and selecting a bid (or not) during each period
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