player career upgrade cap (425 views)

[Deleted]

what say ye?

[killybing]

I would be in favor of something like this but think we should cap individual rating improvements. Instead of just doing +30 inside, something like only 20 points can go into a single eating -- then you would have interesting decisions on how to spend the rest.

This stuff is all about giving GMs interesting decisions that they can use to try the be better than other GM's

[👨🏼‍⚕️delapandemic🚑]

Jun 24, 2020 20:16:57 GMT killybing said:

I would be in favor of something like this but think we should cap individual rating improvements. Instead of just doing +30 inside, something like only 20 points can go into a single eating -- then you would have interesting decisions on how to spend the rest.

This stuff is all about giving GMs interesting decisions that they can use to try the be better than other GM's

I like this.

[Druce]

To expand on this, I may be stating the obvious but upgrade caps and player building go hand in hand. If we had an attribute cap at say 10 and a total cap at 30 it could produce more rounded but not elite players, i.e. bigs only getting +10 inside could stunt them vs. vets etc. Any attribute cap would have to be introduced to the next draft class and their builds would have to then take that into consideration.

[killybing]

Jun 24, 2020 20:43:29 GMT Druce said:

To expand on this, I may be stating the obvious but upgrade caps and player building go hand in hand. If we had an attribute cap at say 10 and a total cap at 30 it could produce more rounded but not elite players, i.e. bigs only getting +10 inside could stunt them vs. vets etc. Any attribute cap would have to be introduced to the next draft class and their builds would have to then take that into consideration.

Sure. I'd also point out just raising the player cap from 25 to 30 would have the same effect of being changing how players are built. I think 10 on an attribute cap is rather lower as well, which is why I spitballed 20.

I'd even be interested in just keeping it at 25 and then adding an additjon +10 that could just be specified as "not the same upgrades that were in the +25"

[TimPig]

Would love to be able to give LeBron another +5 or +10.

Count me in.

[killybing]

Jun 24, 2020 21:35:37 GMT TimPig said:

Would love to be able to give LeBron another +5 or +10.

Count me in.

@odin can you throw up a new poll that is "raise everyone (but lebrons) upgrade cap"

thanks

[skrouse]

Sounds popular, idk how much it will matter big picture but it could be good to try it out pre-6.0. More data is a good thing, right?

What could be some of the potentially negative outcomes from more upgrades? It just means good players get better and bad players have a better shot at getting good, or is there something I'm missing?

[TimPig]

I can’t remember where I suggested tiered upgrades, but I like the idea of only a certain number of points being able to be put into the elite categories (inside, shot blocking, jumper, strength) and the rest having to go elsewhere.

[jhb]

I would only agree to this if individual attributes got a +15 cap

[skrouse]

Jun 25, 2020 0:25:17 GMT jhb said:

I would only agree to this if individual attributes got a +15 cap

How about 25?

[Deleted]

what if you could put 20 into one thing and then up to 10 in other things while raising the cap to 40.

ive always been a fan of having more impact on hgow guys develop. with the average starting potential much lower than it has been throughout tmbsl i think its safe to tey something a little extreme to see how it goes

[eric]

my feeling is that players where +30 inside is possible are those that need it to compete with those for whom it isn't, so i'm leery of the limit system

the possibility of +25 inside doesn't seem to have had runaway issues in 40 years of 5.0 so far, i don't think +30 is that big a difference that we need to shake up the system

with that said, i also like the idea of harder choices, and i like the idea of trying that out before 6.0

for obvious reasons i think the best way to test it will be to grandfather players into the old rules, so for example if we move to +30 or +40 with tiers tim wouldn't be able to give lebron +15 three shot or whatever

[Deleted]

Jun 25, 2020 2:23:37 GMT eric said:

my feeling is that players where +30 inside is possible are those that need it to compete with those for whom it isn't, so i'm leery of the limit system

the possibility of +25 inside doesn't seem to have had runaway issues in 40 years of 5.0 so far, i don't think +30 is that big a difference that we need to shake up the system

with that said, i also like the idea of harder choices, and i like the idea of trying that out before 6.0

for obvious reasons i think the best way to test it will be to grandfather players into the old rules, so for example if we move to +30 or +40 with tiers tim wouldn't be able to give lebron +15 three shot or whatever

i would agree that we need to limit it to new players only. to see how they progress vs the old guys. for science.

[jhb]

I would also support a system where we got rid of skill camps and just said:

40 point upgrade cap
25 max in one attribute
15 max in inside, jump shot, strength, shot blocking

And maybe move to a 45 point annual limit for teams with the assistant to take you up to 50 total that can be given

[Deleted]

i really hate the concept of the team yearly cap and the player career cap being so close in value. i'd really prefer to be upgrading nultiple players each year.

[skrouse]

Jun 25, 2020 4:16:39 GMT jhb said:

15 max in inside, jump shot, strength, shot blocking

Why is this needed? I agree with what eric said below

Jun 25, 2020 2:23:37 GMT eric said:

my feeling is that players where +30 inside is possible are those that need it to compete with those for whom it isn't, so i'm leery of the limit system

the possibility of +25 inside doesn't seem to have had runaway issues in 40 years of 5.0 so far, i don't think +30 is that big a difference that we need to shake up the system

[jhb]

Jun 25, 2020 11:59:51 GMT skrouse said:

Jun 25, 2020 4:16:39 GMT jhb said:

15 max in inside, jump shot, strength, shot blocking

Why is this needed? I agree with what eric said below

Jun 25, 2020 2:23:37 GMT eric said:

my feeling is that players where +30 inside is possible are those that need it to compete with those for whom it isn't, so i'm leery of the limit system

the possibility of +25 inside doesn't seem to have had runaway issues in 40 years of 5.0 so far, i don't think +30 is that big a difference that we need to shake up the system

We already have wild positional value differences where bigs are easier to upgrade because you can take anybody who plays a little defense and rebounds adequately and turn them into a passable at worst scorer.

That doesn’t happen for wings because we’ve got an inside cap on SGs and for some reason we rarely make players with elite outside grades even though those attributes rarely get upgraded.

I think upping the attribute caps without limiting the ability to give bigs inside scoring boosts will just further grow the disparity between big/wing value

[eric]

Jun 25, 2020 13:46:47 GMT jhb said:

Jun 25, 2020 11:59:51 GMT skrouse said:

Why is this needed? I agree with what eric said below

We already have wild positional value differences where bigs are easier to upgrade because you can take anybody who plays a little defense and rebounds adequately and turn them into a passable at worst scorer.

That doesn’t happen for wings because we’ve got an inside cap on SGs and for some reason we rarely make players with elite outside grades even though those attributes rarely get upgraded.

I think upping the attribute caps without limiting the ability to give bigs inside scoring boosts will just further grow the disparity between big/wing value

we don't have an inside cap for SF and they're wings too though, so it seems unlikely that's the reason

also, outside grows much more reliably than inside - there are around 20 players with A level outside in any given season even though players almost never enter the league with it and as you say they almost never get upgrades in it. look at a guy like dennis johnson, he had C outside *after* his first TC and now he's up to A- with only a +10 upgrade

[Druce]

Jun 25, 2020 14:29:42 GMT eric said:

Jun 25, 2020 13:46:47 GMT jhb said:

We already have wild positional value differences where bigs are easier to upgrade because you can take anybody who plays a little defense and rebounds adequately and turn them into a passable at worst scorer.

That doesn’t happen for wings because we’ve got an inside cap on SGs and for some reason we rarely make players with elite outside grades even though those attributes rarely get upgraded.

I think upping the attribute caps without limiting the ability to give bigs inside scoring boosts will just further grow the disparity between big/wing value

we don't have an inside cap for SF and they're wings too though, so it seems unlikely that's the reason

also, outside grows much more reliably than inside - there are around 20 players with A level outside in any given season even though players almost never enter the league with it and as you say they almost never get upgrades in it. look at a guy like dennis johnson, he had C outside *after* his first TC and now he's up to A- with only a +10 upgrade

I think the difference between high outside guys vs. high inside guys is that a guy like PEJ is a lot more useable than a guy like Furkan Korkmaz for example. 


Patrick Ewing Jr. SF 24 6'7'' 226 A- C C- C C C
Patrick Ewing Jr. SF 82 24.6 12.5 4.6 0.9 0.8 0.2 1.0 .528 .803 .357

Furkan Korkmaz SG 6'8'' 175 22 C A- C C C C
Furkan Korkmaz SG 82 20.8 5.7 3.3 1.0 0.7 0.1 0.7 .427 .986 .326

Basically the same grade set except one is a good outside shooter and the other is a good inside scorer, but PEJ is a top tier wing back up and Korkmaz is unplayable. 

[skrouse]

Jun 25, 2020 14:39:30 GMT Druce said:

Jun 25, 2020 14:29:42 GMT eric said:

we don't have an inside cap for SF and they're wings too though, so it seems unlikely that's the reason

also, outside grows much more reliably than inside - there are around 20 players with A level outside in any given season even though players almost never enter the league with it and as you say they almost never get upgrades in it. look at a guy like dennis johnson, he had C outside *after* his first TC and now he's up to A- with only a +10 upgrade

I think the difference between high outside guys vs. high inside guys is that a guy like PEJ is a lot more useable than a guy like Furkan Korkmaz for example. 


Patrick Ewing Jr. SF 24 6'7'' 226 A- C C- C C C
Patrick Ewing Jr. SF 82 24.6 12.5 4.6 0.9 0.8 0.2 1.0 .528 .803 .357

Furkan Korkmaz SG 6'8'' 175 22 C A- C C C C
Furkan Korkmaz SG 82 20.8 5.7 3.3 1.0 0.7 0.1 0.7 .427 .986 .326

Basically the same grade set except one is a good outside shooter and the other is a good inside scorer, but PEJ is a top tier wing back up and Korkmaz is unplayable. 

but isn't this a result of Inside Scoring affecting Outside Scoring but not the other way around? 

[Druce]

Jun 25, 2020 14:50:38 GMT skrouse said:

Jun 25, 2020 14:39:30 GMT Druce said:

I think the difference between high outside guys vs. high inside guys is that a guy like PEJ is a lot more useable than a guy like Furkan Korkmaz for example. 


Patrick Ewing Jr. SF 24 6'7'' 226 A- C C- C C C
Patrick Ewing Jr. SF 82 24.6 12.5 4.6 0.9 0.8 0.2 1.0 .528 .803 .357

Furkan Korkmaz SG 6'8'' 175 22 C A- C C C C
Furkan Korkmaz SG 82 20.8 5.7 3.3 1.0 0.7 0.1 0.7 .427 .986 .326

Basically the same grade set except one is a good outside shooter and the other is a good inside scorer, but PEJ is a top tier wing back up and Korkmaz is unplayable. 

but isn't this a result of Inside Scoring affecting Outside Scoring but not the other way around? 

Yes, my point was that the inside cap makes a player like Korkmaz basically unusable unless you put every upgrade point he has into inside, then if any other hole exists in his game theres no way to fix it.

[skrouse]

Jun 25, 2020 14:57:36 GMT Druce said:

Jun 25, 2020 14:50:38 GMT skrouse said:

but isn't this a result of Inside Scoring affecting Outside Scoring but not the other way around? 

Yes, my point was that the inside cap makes a player like Korkmaz basically unusable unless you put every upgrade point he has into inside, then if any other hole exists in his game theres no way to fix it.

Maybe the Inside Scoring cap should actually be an aggregate cap between inside/outside? idk, sounds complicated though, probably not a good idea

[killybing]

not sure if i'd call korkmaz unplayable those stats aren't actually that bad

[TimPig]

Jun 25, 2020 14:57:36 GMT Druce said:

Jun 25, 2020 14:50:38 GMT skrouse said:

but isn't this a result of Inside Scoring affecting Outside Scoring but not the other way around? 

Yes, my point was that the inside cap makes a player like Korkmaz basically unusable unless you put every upgrade point he has into inside, then if any other hole exists in his game theres no way to fix it.

Didn't you make the point that Steve Kerr could be a very good scorer in an outside offense despite having a low (C or C+) inside grade?

[Majic]

I dont personally like the idea of limiting an attribute at 15, but I do think if we increased the total to 40 we should cap around 25.

I think the ability to increase an important attribute (inside) by 25 and then still have an additional 15 points for something else would be a good compromise.

[Druce]

Jun 25, 2020 16:44:33 GMT TimPig said:

Jun 25, 2020 14:57:36 GMT Druce said:

Yes, my point was that the inside cap makes a player like Korkmaz basically unusable unless you put every upgrade point he has into inside, then if any other hole exists in his game theres no way to fix it.

Didn't you make the point that Steve Kerr could be a very good scorer in an outside offense despite having a low (C or C+) inside grade?

Thats insinuating that Kerr and Furkan's C-C+ inside is comprised of the same attributes, which it clearly is not. Kerr was a stellar scorer in an outside offense, while Korkmaz and several other players who I'd guess have very similar builds are all low volume scorers indicating that their actual inside scoring attribute is very low. 

[Deleted]

i would rather cap inside at 85 or whatever than put a cap on by how much it can be upgraded

[eric]

Jun 25, 2020 14:39:30 GMT Druce said:

Jun 25, 2020 14:29:42 GMT eric said:

we don't have an inside cap for SF and they're wings too though, so it seems unlikely that's the reason

also, outside grows much more reliably than inside - there are around 20 players with A level outside in any given season even though players almost never enter the league with it and as you say they almost never get upgrades in it. look at a guy like dennis johnson, he had C outside *after* his first TC and now he's up to A- with only a +10 upgrade

I think the difference between high outside guys vs. high inside guys is that a guy like PEJ is a lot more useable than a guy like Furkan Korkmaz for example. 


Patrick Ewing Jr. SF 24 6'7'' 226 A- C C- C C C
Patrick Ewing Jr. SF 82 24.6 12.5 4.6 0.9 0.8 0.2 1.0 .528 .803 .357

Furkan Korkmaz SG 6'8'' 175 22 C A- C C C C
Furkan Korkmaz SG 82 20.8 5.7 3.3 1.0 0.7 0.1 0.7 .427 .986 .326

Basically the same grade set except one is a good outside shooter and the other is a good inside scorer, but PEJ is a top tier wing back up and Korkmaz is unplayable. 

the point was not comparing A C to C A guys but explaining why guys come into the league with A inside but guys don't with A outside

i also don't think it's fair to compare a guy who's gotten +25 inside to a guy who's gotten a cool +0 but that's besides all the points

[Deleted]

redick sure was still terrible after +25