Post by TimPig on Sept 10, 2018 21:34:48 GMT
A boring work day calls for a shared Google Doc where we discuss whatever comes to mind.
TimPig: So one thing that’s been on my mind lately as we’re all forced to suffer through Fecta having a good team - what are our most
moves of 5.0 so far?
The first one that comes to mind for me was a trade we saw in year one, when Skrouse swapped Peyton Gragg, Udoka Azubuike, and THREE firsts for GMJ and Zeus Shuttlesworth. The move made sense at the time - BK was pretty much the first person to put a star on the block and Skrouse had a good team. He saw an opportunity to pounce and make himself a contender in year one. Hindsight is 20/20, but this one really backfired. Gragg may be the best power forward in the league, and GMJ never became the star we thought he might. Fortunately for Skrouse, none of those three firsts ended up as lottery picks.
What are a couple of moves that look really ugly in hindsight to you?
Majic: I think that's a really solid choice that you made. Was alot to give up for a player that didnt turn into much.
My choice for this answer is one that I was actually involved with, and looks alot worse with the benefit of hindsight. I would have to say the back to back decisions that RW made in terms of getting Andre Turner, and then trading him away within a half of a season. At the time I think most people, myself included, thought it was a fair trade for both sides. Butler and Gooden were looked at favorably, but not necessarily locks to become great players. Add in 3 potentially middling picks and I dont think its bad. However, Butler already looks like a stud, Gooden looks like a quality big and RW flipped Turner for a package that revolved around Martin. Martin is a really solid player, but when you look at it from the perspective of trading Caron Butler and Gooden plus a couple picks for him, that's a tough pill to swallow.
That leads me to a question on the opposite of this. What is a move or moves that a team made that you loved, and thought really turned things around for their team?
TimPig: I think it’s almost a very similar answer - if one team is really getting bit by a trade, the other is probably benefitting a great deal without giving up much. One trade that’s interesting to me in hindsight was the Clippers - Kings swap where Fason sent Rui Hachimura and a first to the Kings for RJ Cole. For some reason I’ve had trouble getting on the RJ Cole bandwagon. He had a good season with the Raptors, and is a high-volume scorer, but I don’t like his efficiency even if it is good enough for a 5.0 point guard. His rebounding is also good, but for some reason I just haven’t caught RJ fever.
Rui, on the other hand, was someone I really liked. Fason and I were in talks about a Rui deal where I’d send him Sam Perkins and Sarunas Jasikevicius for Rui (I think I may have thrown a pick in as well). Rui’s slowed down a bit, especially this year in San Antonio, so I don’t think that the trade was overwhelmingly positive for either team.
Speaking of the Clippers, they have three guys in Luke Maye, Sam Perkins, and Cole on pretty large and lengthy contracts, then LiAngelo Ball for five more years at $8 million per year. We know Fason can rebuild a team as well as anyone - how much do they scare you in the near future considering you’re in the same division?
Majic: Its funny that you bring up the Clippers, as they were a team I wanted to discuss with you. Off topic really quick, there are 2 teams this season that have been huge disappointments this year in my mind. Those teams would be the Bucks and the Clippers. Both teams have a core of stars that on paper, should put their respect teams in contention. Both teams on paper looked to have some quality depth to rely on. Yet both teams are fighting for a playoff berth.
With that statement out of the way I can move on to your question. Seeing as this team is playing way below expectations, they do provide some concern moving forward. While I am not sure this exact core is one to fear based on this season, I mostly am always worried about Fason and what his next move is. I think we all can agree Fason is one of the best GM’s that we have, and time after time he has shown the ability to rebuild or re tool on the fly and create a contender. Whether these guys start producing more wins or Fason flips them for different pieces, I expect the Clippers to be a playoff contender in the next couple seasons.
So we have been a bit negative so far, I am curious to flip this the other way and get some positive thoughts from you. What's a team and a player that has most surprised you this year in a good way?
TimPig: Negativity is all of the fun, isn’t it? I hate to say it, but the Hornets’ patchwork roster is coming together in a way I didn’t really expect. I expected Yao to be good, but not this good. I think it was pretty clear what Giannis was after his rookie year.
It’s guys like Shareef and Vince that have surprised me the most. Seventh Woods had an unreal first sim, got hurt for almost half the season, and is finally back. The sample size on him is too small for me to put much stock into what he did to open the season, but Shareef and Vince are getting better as the year goes on. Shareef’s FG% is 70 points higher than his career average and Vince’s is 27 points higher. I don’t know how much of an impact (if any) having good players around you makes in the software, but it seems like putting those guys into situations where they weren’t surrounded by garbage has helped quite a bit.
Outside of the Hornets, I’m a little surprised at where the Kings are. Gragg is great, but the roster around him looked more like it was in the midst of a rebuild than a fighting for a playoff spot. Granted, the West is awful and the Pacific even worse, so BK’s .547 winning percentage is still probably inflated, but I like what he’s doing. Gragg should have a few prime years left, I’m a fan of Jason Williams, Herb Jones is a great D/R wing, and the team is positioned to have tons of cap room and draft picks.
After all the talk for years about the West running the league, do you, being as objective as you can, see the tide shifting to favor the East?
Majic: My initial thought was to agree with you in saying the East has moved ahead, but I am not quite so sure. I think if I had to make a choice, the East is a deeper conference top to bottom. From the 1 seed down to the 8th seed, there are more teams, and GM’s, that I think could are solid teams in East than the west. However, when looking at each conference and picking out true contenders I think each conference has about 4, maybe 5 teams. Beyond that I dont have much confidence in any additional teams in either conference.
I think the next couple years will be very interesting to monitor in terms of what teams stay relevant, and which teams go into full rebuild mode. The Knicks are a prime example. Eric has done a hell of e job in the early run of 5.0, but his team is old and he has very little assets for a big trade. In the west there a couple teams that will be in a bit of crossroads, seeing how those GMs navigate it.
This was what spurred me and Druce to write our two long articles. It was really fun to look over every team and see where they stand moving forward. I am curious your overall thoughts on the article. Whats a team or two that you think could be looking at a rebuild here soon? Any teams on our list that you thought have brighter outlook than we gave?
TimPig: I was pretty shocked at how little credit both of you gave the Bulls, to be honest. I understand I may be biased but I think I’ve built a pretty damn good team. Herb “not a notable player” Jones was basically turned into Alex “notable player for the Kings” Reese and Brandon “notable player for the Magic” Griner. I think if there’s one team that’s going to challenge the Hornets this year, it’s the Bulls. I like how my team stacks up and I’m looking forward to us playing each other three times over the next two sims.
The Timberwolves deserved a higher score. I’m not sure what the hell happened to Chuck Person’s handles, but between him, Amare Stoudemire, and Isaiah Canaan, this team has three solid young pieces and eight firsts, including all of their own which end up as likely lotto picks for at least the next few years, and the Wizards, who aren’t better for some reason.
The Raptors should also be higher. Bridges and Mobley are both very good wings, and now with the Magic selling they’ve likely got two lottery picks this season and seven other firsts over the next few years.
As far as teams rebuilding very soon, I think the Magic made the right choice in starting to sell now. I think what the Hornets did this past offseason should make more teams think long and hard about kicking off a rebuild earlier than expected. They’re looking like a very good team for the next four or five years, so unless you have the ability to really add some assets in the short term, you might not be able to keep up. I hope (and believe) the core I have is good enough to keep up, and I hope that something falls apart for Fecta in the next couple of seasons.
Ok, let’s start looking to wrap this thing up. Anything else you are dying to discuss?
Majic: Listen I get what you are saying in regards to your teams score. Overall we gave you one of the higher grades, it was just a couple of things that were uncertain that brought it down. If you lose Jamison thats a huge loss, and without any future picks it could be tough to fill out the edges of your roster. With that said I think you are one of the top teams in the East for the foreseeable future assuming Jamison resigns.
The Wolves should have gotten a higher score in hindsight. Canaan looks like a pretty solid player and Ian has a lot of picks to use. I can admit this should have been higher.
Raptors I stand by though. I agree that Bridges and Mobley are both good players, but they are each 26 and in the prime of their career. Breaux has been the GM for a few years now and they haven't made any major run or improvement. Until I see him make a move to jump up the standings, I don't have a lot of confidence.
I agree with alot of what you said at the end there. I think we are starting to see 5.0 really settle in with an understanding on how to build a team. I have been very happy about the amount and activity of the trade market, and hope that things continue along that path. Player movement is great for the league as it gives it a fresh face every year or two. I wouldn't be surprised to see things in the league slow down a bit over the next year as we all get re-acclimated to Odin running things. One of the most fascinating things I am going to look forward in watching is to see how well this Hornets team can do. This could be the best core of players we have seen yet, but it's also run by one of the worst decision makers at GM. Can Fecta keep things in cruise control and win a couple titles? Or will he fall asleep at the wheel and let things fizzle out?
Other than that I don't have anything else I can think of to discuss. Got any last minute topics?
TimPig: Yeah, quickly, since you bring up the active trade market. Are you going to finally stop bitching about the unweighted lotto? What’s next on your list of grievances?
Majic: I still hate it, and anytime it's brought up for a vote I will vote against it. I am not totally against it, I would just like to see some changes made if we do intend to keep it. However I do admit I was wrong in stating before that it was ruining the trade market and slowing down the league. Seemed there were other reasons for that, and as GM’s have settled into 5.0 we are seeing more and more activity. I think as long as Odin is the commish picks, no matter the location, will be important to have. Odin loves putting hidden gems and sleepers in the draft, so the more shots you have the better. That was my main line of thinking in the recent trades I made.
Other than that I can't say I have much to complain about. For me personally, the new article voting system sort of re-energized me to get back into writing articles. I still think the voting rules are a bit weird, but overall a great change. I think the quality and quantity of articles has increased significantly which was ultimately what we wanted. I am working on my aggression and overall letting things play out before forming an opinion.
What about you, any gripes or anything you would like to see changed?
TimPig: Whoa, Majic. I’m excited to see this new you, but I have to say, your immediate meltdown as Druce attempted to amnesty Halpert has me wondering how much you really mean it.
No changes right now. I’m happy with where the league is at and honestly, with how good the Hornets are, it kind of reminds me of the Warriors IRL. Honestly, I think Charlotte’s cap situation won’t be too difficult to navigate. Yao being dominant in the first year of his rookie contract helps that immensely, and Giannis being good in year two only makes it easier. But I’m still in the camp that once we get into the playoffs, anything can happen. I mean, really, how the hell did I lose three straight to the Magic last year?
Majic: Lets finish this out with a couple rapid fire questions:
How many titles do the Hornets have in 5 years?
TimPig: One.
Majic: Two.
Who is best player from the 06 Draft when all have retired?
TimPig: Jay Williams. Yao is probably the right pick, but going out on a limb here to say J-Will has a higher ceiling at a position it’s tougher to find studs at.
Majic: Think its a 3 man race between Yao, Caron and Williams. I will go with the easy pick and say Yao. His numbers right out of the gate are astounding.
First Hall of Fame inductee?
TimPig: Neon Boudeaux.
Majic: Brain Winter - I almost went Neon, but I don't know if he won enough to justify it. Big stats guy no doubt. I think Brain leaves one year too early rather than going the IRL Kobe route.
Stud most likely moved at this year’s deadline?
TimPig: Taurasi. I don’t see it happening, but I’m not sure we’ll see any more major deadline deals. Heebs has at least discussed moving him.
Majic: Wild prediction, Halpert and Firsto get swapped in a major deal.
TimPig: So one thing that’s been on my mind lately as we’re all forced to suffer through Fecta having a good team - what are our most
moves of 5.0 so far?The first one that comes to mind for me was a trade we saw in year one, when Skrouse swapped Peyton Gragg, Udoka Azubuike, and THREE firsts for GMJ and Zeus Shuttlesworth. The move made sense at the time - BK was pretty much the first person to put a star on the block and Skrouse had a good team. He saw an opportunity to pounce and make himself a contender in year one. Hindsight is 20/20, but this one really backfired. Gragg may be the best power forward in the league, and GMJ never became the star we thought he might. Fortunately for Skrouse, none of those three firsts ended up as lottery picks.
What are a couple of moves that look really ugly in hindsight to you?
Majic: I think that's a really solid choice that you made. Was alot to give up for a player that didnt turn into much.
My choice for this answer is one that I was actually involved with, and looks alot worse with the benefit of hindsight. I would have to say the back to back decisions that RW made in terms of getting Andre Turner, and then trading him away within a half of a season. At the time I think most people, myself included, thought it was a fair trade for both sides. Butler and Gooden were looked at favorably, but not necessarily locks to become great players. Add in 3 potentially middling picks and I dont think its bad. However, Butler already looks like a stud, Gooden looks like a quality big and RW flipped Turner for a package that revolved around Martin. Martin is a really solid player, but when you look at it from the perspective of trading Caron Butler and Gooden plus a couple picks for him, that's a tough pill to swallow.
That leads me to a question on the opposite of this. What is a move or moves that a team made that you loved, and thought really turned things around for their team?
TimPig: I think it’s almost a very similar answer - if one team is really getting bit by a trade, the other is probably benefitting a great deal without giving up much. One trade that’s interesting to me in hindsight was the Clippers - Kings swap where Fason sent Rui Hachimura and a first to the Kings for RJ Cole. For some reason I’ve had trouble getting on the RJ Cole bandwagon. He had a good season with the Raptors, and is a high-volume scorer, but I don’t like his efficiency even if it is good enough for a 5.0 point guard. His rebounding is also good, but for some reason I just haven’t caught RJ fever.
Rui, on the other hand, was someone I really liked. Fason and I were in talks about a Rui deal where I’d send him Sam Perkins and Sarunas Jasikevicius for Rui (I think I may have thrown a pick in as well). Rui’s slowed down a bit, especially this year in San Antonio, so I don’t think that the trade was overwhelmingly positive for either team.
Speaking of the Clippers, they have three guys in Luke Maye, Sam Perkins, and Cole on pretty large and lengthy contracts, then LiAngelo Ball for five more years at $8 million per year. We know Fason can rebuild a team as well as anyone - how much do they scare you in the near future considering you’re in the same division?
Majic: Its funny that you bring up the Clippers, as they were a team I wanted to discuss with you. Off topic really quick, there are 2 teams this season that have been huge disappointments this year in my mind. Those teams would be the Bucks and the Clippers. Both teams have a core of stars that on paper, should put their respect teams in contention. Both teams on paper looked to have some quality depth to rely on. Yet both teams are fighting for a playoff berth.
With that statement out of the way I can move on to your question. Seeing as this team is playing way below expectations, they do provide some concern moving forward. While I am not sure this exact core is one to fear based on this season, I mostly am always worried about Fason and what his next move is. I think we all can agree Fason is one of the best GM’s that we have, and time after time he has shown the ability to rebuild or re tool on the fly and create a contender. Whether these guys start producing more wins or Fason flips them for different pieces, I expect the Clippers to be a playoff contender in the next couple seasons.
So we have been a bit negative so far, I am curious to flip this the other way and get some positive thoughts from you. What's a team and a player that has most surprised you this year in a good way?
TimPig: Negativity is all of the fun, isn’t it? I hate to say it, but the Hornets’ patchwork roster is coming together in a way I didn’t really expect. I expected Yao to be good, but not this good. I think it was pretty clear what Giannis was after his rookie year.
It’s guys like Shareef and Vince that have surprised me the most. Seventh Woods had an unreal first sim, got hurt for almost half the season, and is finally back. The sample size on him is too small for me to put much stock into what he did to open the season, but Shareef and Vince are getting better as the year goes on. Shareef’s FG% is 70 points higher than his career average and Vince’s is 27 points higher. I don’t know how much of an impact (if any) having good players around you makes in the software, but it seems like putting those guys into situations where they weren’t surrounded by garbage has helped quite a bit.
Outside of the Hornets, I’m a little surprised at where the Kings are. Gragg is great, but the roster around him looked more like it was in the midst of a rebuild than a fighting for a playoff spot. Granted, the West is awful and the Pacific even worse, so BK’s .547 winning percentage is still probably inflated, but I like what he’s doing. Gragg should have a few prime years left, I’m a fan of Jason Williams, Herb Jones is a great D/R wing, and the team is positioned to have tons of cap room and draft picks.
After all the talk for years about the West running the league, do you, being as objective as you can, see the tide shifting to favor the East?
Majic: My initial thought was to agree with you in saying the East has moved ahead, but I am not quite so sure. I think if I had to make a choice, the East is a deeper conference top to bottom. From the 1 seed down to the 8th seed, there are more teams, and GM’s, that I think could are solid teams in East than the west. However, when looking at each conference and picking out true contenders I think each conference has about 4, maybe 5 teams. Beyond that I dont have much confidence in any additional teams in either conference.
I think the next couple years will be very interesting to monitor in terms of what teams stay relevant, and which teams go into full rebuild mode. The Knicks are a prime example. Eric has done a hell of e job in the early run of 5.0, but his team is old and he has very little assets for a big trade. In the west there a couple teams that will be in a bit of crossroads, seeing how those GMs navigate it.
This was what spurred me and Druce to write our two long articles. It was really fun to look over every team and see where they stand moving forward. I am curious your overall thoughts on the article. Whats a team or two that you think could be looking at a rebuild here soon? Any teams on our list that you thought have brighter outlook than we gave?
TimPig: I was pretty shocked at how little credit both of you gave the Bulls, to be honest. I understand I may be biased but I think I’ve built a pretty damn good team. Herb “not a notable player” Jones was basically turned into Alex “notable player for the Kings” Reese and Brandon “notable player for the Magic” Griner. I think if there’s one team that’s going to challenge the Hornets this year, it’s the Bulls. I like how my team stacks up and I’m looking forward to us playing each other three times over the next two sims.
The Timberwolves deserved a higher score. I’m not sure what the hell happened to Chuck Person’s handles, but between him, Amare Stoudemire, and Isaiah Canaan, this team has three solid young pieces and eight firsts, including all of their own which end up as likely lotto picks for at least the next few years, and the Wizards, who aren’t better for some reason.
The Raptors should also be higher. Bridges and Mobley are both very good wings, and now with the Magic selling they’ve likely got two lottery picks this season and seven other firsts over the next few years.
As far as teams rebuilding very soon, I think the Magic made the right choice in starting to sell now. I think what the Hornets did this past offseason should make more teams think long and hard about kicking off a rebuild earlier than expected. They’re looking like a very good team for the next four or five years, so unless you have the ability to really add some assets in the short term, you might not be able to keep up. I hope (and believe) the core I have is good enough to keep up, and I hope that something falls apart for Fecta in the next couple of seasons.
Ok, let’s start looking to wrap this thing up. Anything else you are dying to discuss?
Majic: Listen I get what you are saying in regards to your teams score. Overall we gave you one of the higher grades, it was just a couple of things that were uncertain that brought it down. If you lose Jamison thats a huge loss, and without any future picks it could be tough to fill out the edges of your roster. With that said I think you are one of the top teams in the East for the foreseeable future assuming Jamison resigns.
The Wolves should have gotten a higher score in hindsight. Canaan looks like a pretty solid player and Ian has a lot of picks to use. I can admit this should have been higher.
Raptors I stand by though. I agree that Bridges and Mobley are both good players, but they are each 26 and in the prime of their career. Breaux has been the GM for a few years now and they haven't made any major run or improvement. Until I see him make a move to jump up the standings, I don't have a lot of confidence.
I agree with alot of what you said at the end there. I think we are starting to see 5.0 really settle in with an understanding on how to build a team. I have been very happy about the amount and activity of the trade market, and hope that things continue along that path. Player movement is great for the league as it gives it a fresh face every year or two. I wouldn't be surprised to see things in the league slow down a bit over the next year as we all get re-acclimated to Odin running things. One of the most fascinating things I am going to look forward in watching is to see how well this Hornets team can do. This could be the best core of players we have seen yet, but it's also run by one of the worst decision makers at GM. Can Fecta keep things in cruise control and win a couple titles? Or will he fall asleep at the wheel and let things fizzle out?
Other than that I don't have anything else I can think of to discuss. Got any last minute topics?
TimPig: Yeah, quickly, since you bring up the active trade market. Are you going to finally stop bitching about the unweighted lotto? What’s next on your list of grievances?
Majic: I still hate it, and anytime it's brought up for a vote I will vote against it. I am not totally against it, I would just like to see some changes made if we do intend to keep it. However I do admit I was wrong in stating before that it was ruining the trade market and slowing down the league. Seemed there were other reasons for that, and as GM’s have settled into 5.0 we are seeing more and more activity. I think as long as Odin is the commish picks, no matter the location, will be important to have. Odin loves putting hidden gems and sleepers in the draft, so the more shots you have the better. That was my main line of thinking in the recent trades I made.
Other than that I can't say I have much to complain about. For me personally, the new article voting system sort of re-energized me to get back into writing articles. I still think the voting rules are a bit weird, but overall a great change. I think the quality and quantity of articles has increased significantly which was ultimately what we wanted. I am working on my aggression and overall letting things play out before forming an opinion.
What about you, any gripes or anything you would like to see changed?
TimPig: Whoa, Majic. I’m excited to see this new you, but I have to say, your immediate meltdown as Druce attempted to amnesty Halpert has me wondering how much you really mean it.
No changes right now. I’m happy with where the league is at and honestly, with how good the Hornets are, it kind of reminds me of the Warriors IRL. Honestly, I think Charlotte’s cap situation won’t be too difficult to navigate. Yao being dominant in the first year of his rookie contract helps that immensely, and Giannis being good in year two only makes it easier. But I’m still in the camp that once we get into the playoffs, anything can happen. I mean, really, how the hell did I lose three straight to the Magic last year?
Majic: Lets finish this out with a couple rapid fire questions:
How many titles do the Hornets have in 5 years?
TimPig: One.
Majic: Two.
Who is best player from the 06 Draft when all have retired?
TimPig: Jay Williams. Yao is probably the right pick, but going out on a limb here to say J-Will has a higher ceiling at a position it’s tougher to find studs at.
Majic: Think its a 3 man race between Yao, Caron and Williams. I will go with the easy pick and say Yao. His numbers right out of the gate are astounding.
First Hall of Fame inductee?
TimPig: Neon Boudeaux.
Majic: Brain Winter - I almost went Neon, but I don't know if he won enough to justify it. Big stats guy no doubt. I think Brain leaves one year too early rather than going the IRL Kobe route.
Stud most likely moved at this year’s deadline?
TimPig: Taurasi. I don’t see it happening, but I’m not sure we’ll see any more major deadline deals. Heebs has at least discussed moving him.
Majic: Wild prediction, Halpert and Firsto get swapped in a major deal.
