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Post by eric on Nov 6, 2020 16:54:17 GMT
👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 wee2dee Majic TimPig skrouse Logan kn88 Muzunga Mike jhb kujo killybing pointyegg andrewluck troybarnes DruceWe've had a lot of discussion about the means by which to improve rookie free agency, but I think it may solve a lot of debate if we first agree or at least discuss the ends of rookie free agency - what is the purpose of this exercise? The purpose of a lottery (weighted or unweighted) is to help bad teams get better. The purpose of the wheel is to unlink draft position from record. I think it's fair to say each of these methods accomplish their purposes, and each of these purposes has side effects that are good and bad. In the same way, I want to know what purpose do people want out of rookie free agency. Once we figure that out, then (and I would say only then) can we fine tune to best accomplish that purpose, get as many good side effects as possible, and remove as many bad side effects as possible. For example, many people have commented on how a very good Bulls team getting rookies LeBron and Chris Paul (for example) was a bad outcome of the wheel, and since good teams being able to get good rookies was an intended outcome of the wheel we would have to design an entirely new system to avoid that, which we can do with rookie free agency! But if that's not what we're going for, if we don't care if the Bulls could have gotten LeBron under rookie FA too, the methods to avoid that are not what we should be implementing. That's just an example, I'm open to whatever people are aiming to have happen, recognizing of course that no one will agree precisely but we can at least look for a consensus.
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Post by killybing on Nov 6, 2020 17:06:52 GMT
Fun?
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Post by Logan on Nov 6, 2020 17:19:34 GMT
theres a difference in those bulls getting lebron and those bulls getting lebron and those bulls getting and keeping a couple of late first round pick equivalents. can't think of any names because those guys are never impressive. can they be solid role players? of course.
you can rid yourself of contracts far more easily than you can retain players. that doesn't seem like the best way to go about things for me.
another thing: if you sign a guy on a min that means everyone else passed on him. no one is going to sign for a min when offered a substantially higher contract. so the best way to prevent these top teams from getting good players is to scout and sign them for yourself.
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Post by skrouse on Nov 6, 2020 17:59:43 GMT
Rookie FA is just like a Fantasy Football Auction Draft, it brings equal access to all teams to acquire any rookie.
In a Rookie FA system, no one team is guaranteed the acquisition of a single player, which is great given that not all draft classes are created equal.
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Post by eric on Nov 6, 2020 23:20:30 GMT
and what outcomes would be fun |
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Post by eric on Nov 6, 2020 23:29:52 GMT
theres a difference in those bulls getting lebron and those bulls getting lebron and those bulls getting and keeping a couple of late first round pick equivalents. can't think of any names because those guys are never impressive. can they be solid role players? of course. you can rid yourself of contracts far more easily than you can retain players. that doesn't seem like the best way to go about things for me. another thing: if you sign a guy on a min that means everyone else passed on him. no one is going to sign for a min when offered a substantially higher contract. so the best way to prevent these top teams from getting good players is to scout and sign them for yourself. as we've seen this year though we're not talking about late first rounders or solid role players, we're talking about elite rookies going for MLEs and LLEs. literally the bulls themselves have what looks like a future stud in Zeke Nnaji on an MLE if the goal is to keep elite rookies from good teams, we just can't rely on signings to do it. we tried it, it manifestly did not work if we want to have a different goal, that's totally fine, but this is what i'm trying to get at - when (and ONLY when) everyone says what their goal is, we can agree on one and talk about how to get there. talking about how to get to our goal when we aren't talking about the same goal is a waste of everyone's time |
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Post by eric on Nov 6, 2020 23:33:55 GMT
Rookie FA is just like a Fantasy Football Auction Draft, it brings equal access to all teams to acquire any rookie. In a Rookie FA system, no one team is guaranteed the acquisition of a single player, which is great given that not all draft classes are created equal. okay so i don't play fantasy football but a cursory search of Internet indicates these are its auction rules: 1. everyone starts with the same # of points 2. everyone can bid on any player 3. but everyone can only bid up to a certain maximum amount if this is what we're going for, our rookie max would have to be 1 yr $4.5m, right? otherwise teams over the cap are at a massive disadvantage for any given player regardless of how good or bad they are - isaac okoro ain't looking to hot, but no overcap team was beating pointy's bid for him and i'm not saying that's a bad thing! i'm just trying to understand what peoples' specific goals are here |
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Post by Logan on Nov 7, 2020 0:01:56 GMT
theres a difference in those bulls getting lebron and those bulls getting lebron and those bulls getting and keeping a couple of late first round pick equivalents. can't think of any names because those guys are never impressive. can they be solid role players? of course. you can rid yourself of contracts far more easily than you can retain players. that doesn't seem like the best way to go about things for me. another thing: if you sign a guy on a min that means everyone else passed on him. no one is going to sign for a min when offered a substantially higher contract. so the best way to prevent these top teams from getting good players is to scout and sign them for yourself. as we've seen this year though we're not talking about late first rounders or solid role players, we're talking about elite rookies going for MLEs and LLEs. literally the bulls themselves have what looks like a future stud in Zeke Nnaji on an MLE if the goal is to keep elite rookies from good teams, we just can't rely on signings to do it. we tried it, it manifestly did not work if we want to have a different goal, that's totally fine, but this is what i'm trying to get at - when (and ONLY when) everyone says what their goal is, we can agree on one and talk about how to get there. talking about how to get to our goal when we aren't talking about the same goal is a waste of everyone's time i think its premature to say it didnt work considering we've had one rookie fa and people have barely begun to properly manage their cap for it. and even if it does continue to function like that it will vary wildly from year to year |
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Post by skrouse on Nov 7, 2020 1:32:40 GMT
Rookie FA is just like a Fantasy Football Auction Draft, it brings equal access to all teams to acquire any rookie. In a Rookie FA system, no one team is guaranteed the acquisition of a single player, which is great given that not all draft classes are created equal. okay so i don't play fantasy football but a cursory search of Internet indicates these are its auction rules: 1. everyone starts with the same # of points 2. everyone can bid on any player 3. but everyone can only bid up to a certain maximum amount if this is what we're going for, our rookie max would have to be 1 yr $4.5m, right? otherwise teams over the cap are at a massive disadvantage for any given player regardless of how good or bad they are - isaac okoro ain't looking to hot, but no overcap team was beating pointy's bid for him and i'm not saying that's a bad thing! i'm just trying to understand what peoples' specific goals are here They have the same premise, the salary caps act as the budget we are given, we all have equal opportunity to bid on any player if we manage our cap accordingly. But the rules we have are fine as far as player acquisition, it was the retention i thought we were questioning. |
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Post by killybing on Nov 7, 2020 5:28:01 GMT
and what outcomes would be fu For me its more about the journey than the destination |
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Post by eric on Nov 7, 2020 16:35:33 GMT
okay so i don't play fantasy football but a cursory search of Internet indicates these are its auction rules: 1. everyone starts with the same # of points 2. everyone can bid on any player 3. but everyone can only bid up to a certain maximum amount if this is what we're going for, our rookie max would have to be 1 yr $4.5m, right? otherwise teams over the cap are at a massive disadvantage for any given player regardless of how good or bad they are - isaac okoro ain't looking to hot, but no overcap team was beating pointy's bid for him and i'm not saying that's a bad thing! i'm just trying to understand what peoples' specific goals are here They have the same premise, the salary caps act as the budget we are given, we all have equal opportunity to bid on any player if we manage our cap accordingly. But the rules we have are fine as far as player acquisition, it was the retention i thought we were questioning. what i'm questioning is the goal: what do we want rookie FA to doif we want equal access, there are ways to do that if we want equal access for only teams with soft cap room, there are ways to do that if we want something else that isn't either of those things, there will be ways to do that too the whole point of this thread is people keep jumping to the "how" without deciding on the "why" |
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Post by eric on Nov 7, 2020 16:37:31 GMT
and what outcomes would be fu For me its more about the journey than the destination and what journeys would be fun |
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Post by skrouse on Nov 7, 2020 17:17:38 GMT
Equal access to acquire players was my assumption. Logan what was your original goal? |
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Post by Logan on Nov 7, 2020 17:28:37 GMT
Equal access to acquire players was my assumption. Logan what was your original goal? avoiding players being gifted to elite teams because it was their turn avoiding kg for siakam tier trades but rookie fa has brought several problems with it that need to be addressed, and quickly so we can even know if the system is viable or not. its like we're trying to bake a cake but have decided to use cornmeal instead of flour because we are out of flour. it just doesnt work. and slowly changing the other ingredients wont make it cake. but what we can do is stop trying to make cake and instead make cornbread because after all we are out of flour. |
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Post by eric on Nov 7, 2020 19:48:12 GMT
Equal access to acquire players was my assumption. Logan what was your original goal? avoiding players being gifted to elite teams because it was their turn avoiding kg for siakam tier trades but rookie fa has brought several problems with it that need to be addressed, and quickly so we can even know if the system is viable or not. its like we're trying to bake a cake but have decided to use cornmeal instead of flour because we are out of flour. it just doesnt work. and slowly changing the other ingredients wont make it cake. but what we can do is stop trying to make cake and instead make cornbread because after all we are out of flour. but we don't have a decision between flour and cornmeal, we have one person who wants to add cornmeal, one person who wants to add eggs, one person who wants to add corn syrup, one person who wants to add milk, one person wants to add pork, one person wants to add cinnamon everyone agrees we should add sugar (cheaper scouts), okay we're adding sugar everyone wants to add something else but can't agree what it is, all i'm saying is throwing everything in the pot at once makes no sense when we can just as easily do one at a time and see what happens |
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Post by Logan on Nov 7, 2020 19:58:11 GMT
avoiding players being gifted to elite teams because it was their turn avoiding kg for siakam tier trades but rookie fa has brought several problems with it that need to be addressed, and quickly so we can even know if the system is viable or not. its like we're trying to bake a cake but have decided to use cornmeal instead of flour because we are out of flour. it just doesnt work. and slowly changing the other ingredients wont make it cake. but what we can do is stop trying to make cake and instead make cornbread because after all we are out of flour. but we don't have a decision between flour and cornmeal, we have one person who wants to add cornmeal, one person who wants to add eggs, one person who wants to add corn syrup, one person who wants to add milk, one person wants to add pork, one person wants to add cinnamon everyone agrees we should add sugar (cheaper scouts), okay we're adding sugar everyone wants to add something else but can't agree what it is, all i'm saying is throwing everything in the pot at once makes no sense when we can just as easily do one at a time and see what happens i mean that sounds delicious if we just throw out the pork. we just need to figure out which idea is pork and i think the best way to do that is by testing. |
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Post by Mike on Nov 9, 2020 9:33:19 GMT
Rookie FA sucks
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