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Post by TimPig on Mar 15, 2020 17:15:44 GMT
h/t drunk Druce for this idea on the drunk pod, which I assume few will listen to, so I thought I'd pull out what I thought was one of the better ideas. I think it might also go a small way towards satisfying some of the gripes people have around the price of scouting. The proposal was for "Private Workouts", which we know are run all the time IRL. With this idea, you'd pick a certain number of prospects to come in for a private workout. Rather than getting letter representations of attributes, stats, or full breakdowns, private workouts (in my mind) would give a relative ranking of the players you chose to bring in. They'd be ranked against each other so you could see who was better at each attribute. I think it'd be most useful when torn between a couple of players, especially at the top of the draft. | Name | Ins | Jsh | 3sh | Han | Qui | Pas | Ste | Sho | PoD | PeD | DrD | Orb | Drb | Str | Jum | Pot | | Player A | 1 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 2 | | Player B | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | | Player C | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 3 |
The results might look something like that table. If two attributes are tied (as drive defense always is), then they receive the same number. I think for something like this, you could start it around 8k, but then charge an additional 5k for each additional player you add to the private workout session. If you want to do a private workout for another player, you'd have to start from scratch, just like in real life. If eric has the data in Excel, it'd be super easy to pick three (or however many) rows and then just rank each column in order. If we wanted to add extra realism, he could even pick a max X amount of attributes (2-3?) that he would fudge, but could also fudge 0 of the numbers if he liked. Thoughts? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 17:24:32 GMT
seems really cheap for a thing that would make a tough choice a no-brainer.
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Post by Druce on Mar 15, 2020 17:27:49 GMT
brilliant idea
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Post by Druce on Mar 15, 2020 17:29:39 GMT
Maybe 10k to compare 3 players 5 categories, another 5k for an additional 3 entries either players or attributes? idk
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Post by TimPig on Mar 15, 2020 17:32:20 GMT
seems really cheap for a thing that would make a tough choice a no-brainer. Would it make it a no-brainer though? Player A could be 1 in inside, strength, and shot blocking with a 70 in each of those attributes, but be 2 in Jumper and have a 20 rating. Player B could be 2 in all of those categories with 65 in each, but be 1 in jumper with 100. Player A looks much better on the surface, but player B is the better choice. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 17:35:43 GMT
seems really cheap for a thing that would make a tough choice a no-brainer. Would it make it a no-brainer though? Player A could be 1 in inside, strength, and shot blocking with a 70 in each of those attributes, but be 2 in Jumper and have a 20 rating. Player B could be 2 in all of those categories with 65 in each, but be 1 in jumper with 100. Player A looks much better on the surface, but player B is the better choice.
Maybe. I figure with the grades, combine, and profiles getting each attribute ranked would make it a no brainer.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 18:31:51 GMT
this is a similar system to how scouting has worked in the past but i like this version quite a bit more. big fan.
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Mar 15, 2020 18:45:59 GMT
yeah, I like this idea a ton
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Post by TimPig on Mar 15, 2020 18:51:35 GMT
Would love to hear folks' ideas on how to tier the pricing, and if all attributes are revealed? Regarding Druce 's idea of "picking" the five attributes that are scouted or whatever, this seems like a waste of time as everyone is going to pick inside, jumper, strength, shot blocking, and potential (or probably at least four of the five). And how do we feel about the possibility of eric fudging with the ranking? My thought in proposing that is that if IRL Steph Curry and IRL Buddy Hield had a 3-point shootout during a one-time private workout, there's a chance that Hield beats him every once in a while. |
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Post by Druce on Mar 15, 2020 19:01:55 GMT
I think generally speaking this is a way of buying some more certainty in a very uncertain process so “fudging” with the rankings is I think overkill. You can already pick the right guy and get screwed by tc or many other factors.
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Post by eric on Mar 15, 2020 19:45:41 GMT
no fudge
yes poll
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Post by TimPig on Mar 15, 2020 19:49:51 GMT
Poll added. Please vote Druce @odin 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 @bkisok It seems pretty popular sans number fudging. How about pricing? Where's a fair place to start, and should additional players be a flat cost, or should they escalate (i.e. 5k for the 3rd player, 7.5k for the 4th player, 10k for the 5th player, etc.)? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 19:51:35 GMT
Poll added. Please vote Druce @odin 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 @bkisok It seems pretty popular sans number fudging. How about pricing? Where's a fair place to start, and should additional players be a flat cost, or should they escalate (i.e. 5k for the 3rd player, 7.5k for the 4th player, 10k for the 5th player, etc.)? escalating cost is interesting |
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Post by TimPig on Mar 15, 2020 19:57:05 GMT
Poll added. Please vote Druce @odin 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 @bkisok It seems pretty popular sans number fudging. How about pricing? Where's a fair place to start, and should additional players be a flat cost, or should they escalate (i.e. 5k for the 3rd player, 7.5k for the 4th player, 10k for the 5th player, etc.)? escalating cost is interesting Just to clarify as I re-read my suggestion above, I'd foresee escalating looking something like this: First two players = 10,000 Third players = 5,000 Fourth player = 7,500 Fifth player = 10,000 Total = 32,500 for five players total. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 19:59:13 GMT
or OR, and just hear me out, first two players are free
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Post by eric on Mar 15, 2020 21:39:02 GMT
no free scouting of any kind under any circumstances
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 21:42:03 GMT
no free scouting of any kind under any circumstances  |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Mar 15, 2020 23:33:17 GMT
20k for the first two. 7.5 for each additional player.
(For 5 attributes)
30k for the first two. 7.5 for each additional player.
(For 10 attributes)
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Post by Druce on Mar 16, 2020 0:08:06 GMT
20k for the first two. 7.5 for each additional player. (For 5 attributes) 30k for the first two. 7.5 for each additional player. (For 10 attributes) How does this compare to current scouting costs? (No I cannot seem to find the current scouting costs) |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Mar 16, 2020 1:25:07 GMT
Cheaper by a little bit
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Post by TimPig on Mar 16, 2020 3:28:47 GMT
20k for the first two. 7.5 for each additional player. (For 5 attributes) 30k for the first two. 7.5 for each additional player. (For 10 attributes) How does this compare to current scouting costs? (No I cannot seem to find the current scouting costs) Just look in any of Eric’s offseason posts thread |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2020 4:56:54 GMT
no free scouting of any kind under any circumstances this is very offensive to those of us who dont do anything |
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Post by Druce on Mar 16, 2020 12:10:15 GMT
How does this compare to current scouting costs? (No I cannot seem to find the current scouting costs) Just look in any of Eric’s offseason posts thread Ok so looking at that, I think 15k for 3 players 5 attributes is the sweet spot, with ability to purchase more |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Mar 16, 2020 13:56:47 GMT
under my proposal above:
Previous: 35k to scout EXACTLY 1 player
Now: 35k to scout PARTIALLY, but RANKED!, 4 players
Previous: 70k to scout EXACTLY 2 players
Now: 45k to scout ALMOST FULLY, but RANKED!, 4 players
It's a cheaper system that is a lot more like IRL scouting. You don't scout a guy IRL and get information like "86 Inside, 70 Jumpshot, 65 Shot Blocking"... you stack them up against other options, re: "Joe Schmo is a better shot blocker and defensive rebounder than John Doe, but John Doe is a better free throw shooter and has a better cone drill time"
So... it is clear that my proposal is the best ever.
I would say you get to pick the 5 attributes as well, in the request... not a set list of 5. There are 16 total attributes, right?
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Post by Druce on Mar 16, 2020 14:32:19 GMT
Draft scouting:
tier 1 - 05k - gm receives the attribute total of the player
tier 2 - 12k - gm receives the attribute breakdown of a given grade (Inside, Outside, etc.) in letter form (A = 81-100, B = 61-80, etc.)
tier 3 - 20k - gm receives all attributes in letter form
tier 4 - 35k - gm receives all attributes exactly
stats - 25k - gm receives the aggregate per-36 stats from the season run three times test sim (only profile players can use this tier)
Given the above pricing model 25 - 35k is giving you exact information. You could scout 4 players under your proposal and if they're all shit you've basically wasted 35k. Maybe an interesting discussion is tiering all of the scouting for pick position. Making scouting 2nd rounders cheaper because they're worse players in general, being able to scout if someone is a "hidden gem" etc. So say the private workout for 4 players is 30k for a first round pick and 15k for a second and so on. IMO the private workout should be cheaper than getting an exact grade set because of the absolute truth there is in an exact grade set.
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Post by Druce on Mar 16, 2020 14:35:59 GMT
Draft scouting:
tier 1 - 05k - gm receives the attribute total of the player
tier 2 - 12k - gm receives the attribute breakdown of a given grade (Inside, Outside, etc.) in letter form (A = 81-100, B = 61-80, etc.) (half price for 2nd)
tier 3 - 20k - gm receives all attributes in letter form (half price for 2nd)
tier 4 - 35k - gm receives all attributes exactly (First Round Pick Only)
Private Workout - 30K 4 players 5 attributes ranked (First Round Pick) 15k (2nd round pick)
Add 5k for hidden gem indicator on any scouting purchased
stats - 25k - gm receives the aggregate per-36 stats from the season run three times test sim (only profile players and first round picks can use this tier)
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Post by eric on Mar 16, 2020 14:36:16 GMT
20k for the first two. 7.5 for each additional player. (For 5 attributes) 30k for the first two. 7.5 for each additional player. (For 10 attributes) i think to tim's point the limited attributes one doesn't make much sense since the five most important attributes are so much more important than the rest i also want everyone to keep in mind that the gaps can be of widely varying sizes. just picking a scout i sent of two people at random, the gaps ranged from 5 inside to 40 jumping so let's go with 25k for the first two, 5k for each additional player, and see what's what if too many people use it i'll just make it more expensive |
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Post by 👨🏼⚕️delapandemic🚑 on Mar 16, 2020 14:38:27 GMT
20k for the first two. 7.5 for each additional player. (For 5 attributes) 30k for the first two. 7.5 for each additional player. (For 10 attributes) i think to tim's point the limited attributes one doesn't make much sense since the five most important attributes are so much more important than the rest i also want everyone to keep in mind that the gaps can be of widely varying sizes. just picking a scout i sent of two people at random, the gaps ranged from 5 inside to 40 jumping so let's go with 25k for the first two, 5k for each additional player, and see what's what if too many people use it i'll just make it more expensive I think we know that... but GMs want a chance to comparatively scout a small handful of players. |
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Post by eric on Mar 16, 2020 14:39:41 GMT
Draft scouting: tier 1 - 05k - gm receives the attribute total of the player tier 2 - 12k - gm receives the attribute breakdown of a given grade (Inside, Outside, etc.) in letter form (A = 81-100, B = 61-80, etc.) tier 3 - 20k - gm receives all attributes in letter form tier 4 - 35k - gm receives all attributes exactly stats - 25k - gm receives the aggregate per-36 stats from the season run three times test sim (only profile players can use this tier) Given the above pricing model 25 - 35k is giving you exact information. You could scout 4 players under your proposal and if they're all shit you've basically wasted 35k. Maybe an interesting discussion is tiering all of the scouting for pick position. Making scouting 2nd rounders cheaper because they're worse players in general, being able to scout if someone is a "hidden gem" etc. So say the private workout for 4 players is 30k for a first round pick and 15k for a second and so on. IMO the private workout should be cheaper than getting an exact grade set because of the absolute truth there is in an exact grade set. for the record any scout of potential attribute already reveals if someone is a hidden gem |
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Post by jhb on Mar 16, 2020 15:50:46 GMT
so would this get rid of the current Tier 4 scout?
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