Norman Dale
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Post by Norman Dale on Jan 9, 2019 20:13:22 GMT
Also, I realize standings will not be final standings but for our time purposes we could just trade deadline standings as the metric of draft order
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Post by TimPig on Jan 9, 2019 20:16:36 GMT
We really don’t need to increase the cap.
I see absolutely no reason to do this.
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Norman Dale
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Post by Norman Dale on Jan 9, 2019 20:27:20 GMT
That is fine with me, this is the perfect year for this to happen in the last year of Lew’s contract. At least give me the draft, think that would be a fun process
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2019 21:10:22 GMT
Waivers has to be an insane way to implement this right? Just make them all free agents
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Post by eric on Jan 9, 2019 21:14:05 GMT
I will be more than happy to conduct the draft. I can start the draft right after trade deadline. So we should have it concluded by playoffs or shortly after. In regards to the cap, let me know if this makes anymore sense to you. We are going to have less teams with more talent in the league, I feel in this type of scenario, I would compare to the nba and aba merger, they had a merger draft and there were spikes in salaries that eventually forced the cap. I feel a slight accommodation should be made to give teams some flexibility that are on the higher end of the cap. I will point out that I am not arguing for my own selfish reasons, I will have a ton of cap room. we can't do the draft before the end of the season though because we don't know which rosters are being contracted. salaries didn't go up because of the merger, they went up because of the competition, that's why they were shooting up in the late 60s / early 70s way before the merger happened. the biggest contract in the NBA went from $100.001k for russell in 65 to $250k for wilt in 67 explicitly because of the ABA, and got up to $3.1m for kareem in 1975 - and this is in a period where the talent level is going *down* in the NBA because great players were over in the ABA instead. plus in both yearly and total value contracts plateaued at that point until magic's $25m/25yr deal in 1981, way after the merger. i don't see how we can conclude the merger itself did anything but depress the runaway salary increases that were occurring in the ABA+NBA period |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2019 21:15:16 GMT
It’s be kinda cool to do a cap increase of one max contract and just see what happens. The teams with cap space already would just have more.
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Post by eric on Jan 9, 2019 21:15:59 GMT
Waivers has to be an insane way to implement this right? Just make them all free agents this is the closest i've come to deleting someone else's post |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2019 21:24:55 GMT
Waivers has to be an insane way to implement this right? Just make them all free agents this is the closest i've come to deleting someone else's post  |
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Norman Dale
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Post by Norman Dale on Jan 9, 2019 21:34:18 GMT
I will be more than happy to conduct the draft. I can start the draft right after trade deadline. So we should have it concluded by playoffs or shortly after. In regards to the cap, let me know if this makes anymore sense to you. We are going to have less teams with more talent in the league, I feel in this type of scenario, I would compare to the nba and aba merger, they had a merger draft and there were spikes in salaries that eventually forced the cap. I feel a slight accommodation should be made to give teams some flexibility that are on the higher end of the cap. I will point out that I am not arguing for my own selfish reasons, I will have a ton of cap room. we can't do the draft before the end of the season though because we don't know which rosters are being contracted. salaries didn't go up because of the merger, they went up because of the competition, that's why they were shooting up in the late 60s / early 70s way before the merger happened. the biggest contract in the NBA went from $100.001k for russell in 65 to $250k for wilt in 67 explicitly because of the ABA, and got up to $3.1m for kareem in 1975 - and this is in a period where the talent level is going *down* in the NBA because great players were over in the ABA instead. plus in both yearly and total value contracts plateaued at that point until magic's $25m/25yr deal in 1981, way after the merger. i don't see how we can conclude the merger itself did anything but depress the runaway salary increases that were occurring in the ABA+NBA period The competition between the ABA and NBA was the start of the escalation but when the aba teams were contracted they had a draft and that influx of talent in 76 and those contracts ending is why you saw a spike in 80-81. |
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Norman Dale
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Post by Norman Dale on Jan 9, 2019 21:34:40 GMT
Which that eventually lead to the cap
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Norman Dale
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Post by Norman Dale on Jan 9, 2019 21:37:14 GMT
Now my point is this, unlike 76 where ABA were paid rookie deals, we are taking on contracts on proven players. So I would compare this to the earlier 80s and the spikes that happened when proven talent had to be paid
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Post by Majic on Jan 9, 2019 22:00:00 GMT
I would personally be against the Cap going up, at least in the short term until we see what impact the smaller league would have
also, I would strongly be on the side of jus having an contraction draft. Every player is thrown into the draft pool with their current salary.
Winning % is used to determine the draft order.
I understand its doing the same thing as a waiver, but I just think for simplicity, tracking and information gathering a draft would be easier.
We could track every pick, who is left, the contracts they are on, etc. etc.
Having anyone, even eric, sifting through 15+ waivers for multiple players seems like a big ask and alot of work. Draft could easily solve those problems
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Post by eric on Jan 9, 2019 22:04:11 GMT
Now my point is this, unlike 76 where ABA were paid rookie deals, we are taking on contracts on proven players. So I would compare this to the earlier 80s and the spikes that happened when proven talent had to be paid the players in the dispersal draft were definitely not paid rookie deals. Artis Gilmore got $1.1m when rookies were getting $20k. to my previous point, though, this was nowhere near what players could demand when they had two leagues to bid against each other even though Gilmore was an established MVP caliber player. and plenty of other players came off contracts between 77 and 81, including Moses Malone, who didn't get paid until 1982. i hear what you're saying and it's reasonable, the history just doesn't back it up. |
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Post by eric on Jan 9, 2019 22:05:49 GMT
I would personally be against the Cap going up, at least in the short term until we see what impact the smaller league would have also, I would strongly be on the side of jus having an contraction draft. Every player is thrown into the draft pool with their current salary. Winning % is used to determine the draft order. I understand its doing the same thing as a waiver, but I just think for simplicity, tracking and information gathering a draft would be easier. We could track every pick, who is left, the contracts they are on, etc. etc. Having anyone, even eric, sifting through 15+ waivers for multiple players seems like a big ask and alot of work. Draft could easily solve those problems i appreciate the thought, but having been involved in running drafts for many years i can guarantee you waivers would be less work for me. this isn't why i'm for it, i'm for it because it'd be much faster and much easier on the league, i'm just saying since it came up. |
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Post by eric on Jan 9, 2019 22:06:07 GMT
Owed Picks
on spl's advice i checked out the supplemental pick system in baseball and i think it can be adapted to our needs
all 2012 picks will be honored
for all 2013+ picks from contracted teams, the team's place in reverse win% this year will be recorded. for example the worst team in the league would be #1 and the best team would be #29
during the 2013-2016 drafts there will be a supplemental round halfway through the first round human picks (rounded down in case of an odd number of human GMs, e.g. after the 7th pick in a 13 team draft). all owed picks will be made in this supplemental round in the above order.
i want to stress that we probably don't need to put too much thought into this, because there's only one or two teams likely to contract that even owe picks out that far, and neither of them are likely to be 1.1 type rosters. i just wanted to get an idea out there and see how we like it.
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Post by TimPig on Jan 9, 2019 23:01:08 GMT
Since it appears we’re going with some form of this route, should trading with second teams be stopped?
There’s no reason for a soon-to-be contracted Knicks team to trade Firsto for 5 picks or whatever, right?
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Norman Dale
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Post by Norman Dale on Jan 9, 2019 23:03:23 GMT
I think that would be the right thing to do. I also want to ask this question, what happens to picks owned by contracted teams?
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Norman Dale
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Post by Norman Dale on Jan 9, 2019 23:24:58 GMT
My suggestion is any draft pick owned by a contracted team will be forfeited. For example my picks I believe are owed to spurs and pistons. I wouldn’t get those back, those picks would become forfeit.
Another thing we should consider is pealing back talent in the drafts
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2019 23:29:39 GMT
My suggestion is any draft pick owned by a contracted team will be forfeited. For example my picks I believe are owed to spurs and pistons. I wouldn’t get those back, those picks would become forfeit. Another thing we should consider is pealing back talent in the drafts Spoken like somebody whose basically only drafted lew |
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Norman Dale
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Post by Norman Dale on Jan 9, 2019 23:43:39 GMT
My suggestion is any draft pick owned by a contracted team will be forfeited. For example my picks I believe are owed to spurs and pistons. I wouldn’t get those back, those picks would become forfeit. Another thing we should consider is pealing back talent in the drafts Spoken like somebody whose basically only drafted lew No, draft pool is factored off 28 teams, if we go to 15 teams..... use logic |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 0:27:51 GMT
Spoken like somebody whose basically only drafted lew No, draft pool is factored off 28 teams, if we go to 15 teams..... use logic end of the 1st rounder produce win shares negligbly above 2nd rounders anyway so it really doesnt matter. the adjustments needed would be small |
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Post by eric on Jan 10, 2019 0:37:18 GMT
Since it appears we’re going with some form of this route, should trading with second teams be stopped? There’s no reason for a soon-to-be contracted Knicks team to trade Firsto for 5 picks or whatever, right? yes, you're right My suggestion is any draft pick owned by a contracted team will be forfeited. For example my picks I believe are owed to spurs and pistons. I wouldn’t get those back, those picks would become forfeit. Another thing we should consider is pealing back talent in the drafts the forfeiting is a good suggestion i definitely want to keep as many profile guys as we've been doing because that increases the information to pick ratio without changing the work needed one solution to talent inflation might be to have ONLY profile guys and the rest software players, since software players are bad, but i'll think about it more |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 2:21:55 GMT
Since it appears we’re going with some form of this route, should trading with second teams be stopped? There’s no reason for a soon-to-be contracted Knicks team to trade Firsto for 5 picks or whatever, right? yes, you're right My suggestion is any draft pick owned by a contracted team will be forfeited. For example my picks I believe are owed to spurs and pistons. I wouldn’t get those back, those picks would become forfeit. Another thing we should consider is pealing back talent in the drafts the forfeiting is a good suggestion i definitely want to keep as many profile guys as we've been doing because that increases the information to pick ratio without changing the work needed one solution to talent inflation might be to have ONLY profile guys and the rest software players, since software players are bad, but i'll think about it more Keep the real player names at least for 30 players, just make them worse as you see fit |
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Post by eric on Jan 10, 2019 3:01:02 GMT
yes, you're rightthe forfeiting is a good suggestion i definitely want to keep as many profile guys as we've been doing because that increases the information to pick ratio without changing the work needed one solution to talent inflation might be to have ONLY profile guys and the rest software players, since software players are bad, but i'll think about it more Keep the real player names at least for 30 players, just make them worse as you see fit in retrospect this will probably be easier than deciding which softs (software players) to delete |
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Post by eric on Jan 10, 2019 15:10:28 GMT
i had another thought, would the people concerned about talent inflation be assuaged if we made it so any player that makes it through both rounds of waivers retires instead of becoming a FA?
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Norman Dale
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Post by Norman Dale on Jan 10, 2019 15:44:54 GMT
i had another thought, would the people concerned about talent inflation be assuaged if we made it so any player that makes it through both rounds of waivers retires instead of becoming a FA? Yes, kill them, kill them all |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2019 16:07:11 GMT
i had another thought, would the people concerned about talent inflation be assuaged if we made it so any player that makes it through both rounds of waivers retires instead of becoming a FA?  this is awful |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 21:39:01 GMT
maybe I am just not understanding the logistics of how the waver would work. Draft seems easier in terms of tracking for all parties and to easily see who was taken, who is left and the contract situations. Any team besides the original team can submit a claim to take on the contract, so long as they have hard cap space to do so and are capable of signing a free agent. The team with the lowest winning % at the end of the wire will get the player. If tied, previous seasons will be considered until the tie is broken. If the player is not signed, they are treated as any other free agent. . the advantage to this system is that players already have contracts determined by the market, so we don't have to worry about a team getting a stud or a scrub on a $12m deal (or whatever we make round 1). it also is dramatically easier to reuse should we want to contract another team at any point in the future, as one team won't make nearly enough players to sensibly run a draft what does the phrase "at the end of the wire" mean |
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